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'Free' bus travel costs millions (From Thisisdorset)
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'Free' bus travel costs millions
8:06am Monday 9th November 2009
SO-CALLED ‘free’ bus travel for the over-60s is costing Dorset taxpayers millions of pounds – and is set to get worse.
Bournemouth council taxpayers will fork out £3.7m to subsidise the government’s concessionary bus fare scheme this year.
Other councils are also having to raid their coffers for hundreds of thousands every year to do the same.
But instead of getting more cash to cover the shortfall, Dorset councils look set to be dealt a hammer-blow by a Department for Transport consultation, which proposes thousands more are slashed from their budgets next year.
Purbeck has warned other services could suffer, and Christchurch has revealed the shortfall is costing the average council taxpayer £22 a year.
The proposed cuts relate to a government review of the extra grants it made available to fund the extension of the free bus travel scheme in April last year – allowing over-60s to travel on buses anywhere in the country for free.
According to the consultation document, East Dorset and North Dorset district councils could lose £100,000 each from their 2010-11 budgets, while Purbeck would be down £110,000.
Whilst Christchurch and Poole will not see any change, both claim the travel schemes are so badly under-funded that overall shortfalls will be massive. Only Bournemouth is set to benefit, with a proposed additional £70,000 of funding – a drop in the ocean compared to the shortfall.
Cllr John Beesley, cabinet member for resources, said the announcement showed the funding mechanism was failing and Bournemouth taxpayers were shelling out for “the high level of visitors” taking advantage of the scheme in the town.
“This year council tax payers will pick up £3.7 million of the bill with it only costing the government £1.2 million of the total,” he said.
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Your Say YourDorset
Adrian Fudge, Bournemouth says...
8:35am Mon 9 Nov 09
wonderway wrote:Precisely right
Cllr John Beesley, cabinet member for resources, said the announcement showed the funding mechanism was failing and Bournemouth taxpayers were shelling out for “the high level of visitors” taking advantage of the scheme in the town. “This year council tax payers will pick up £3.7 million of the bill with it only costing the government £1.2 million of the total,” he said. At last Cabinet Meeting he was bragging that the council had save £600,000 on consessionary fares this year alone sooy Mr B you talk trash. You even gave Air Show £50,000 extra from this saving £70,000 to scrutiny panel to make cost savings over 2 years and £50,000 to Cabinet Member to make those cuts Again you tell people one thing and a month later another so please be honest because the Audit Team has shown how clever this council are with money and you are the person pulling the purse strings and at present nothing adds up
I think the main word in this comment is "honest"
A couple of months ago Cllr Beesley was saying how they were going to have to make swinging cuts to keep Council tax increases under5%, then
having spent the saving on the bus travel ,he again states that they are going to have to make cuts in front line services ,he is then quoted as saying they are going to bring in a low increase in Council Tax, and now he is beboaning a supposed substantial cost.
Its good to see that he has a firm grip on what is going on -----NOT
mark0peters, Bournemouth says...
8:44am Mon 9 Nov 09
....
The OAP drivers who keep driving beyond the age where it is safe put others at risk and it would be better for them on the bus.
....
The public transport in Bournemouth Poole Christchurch Highcliff etc should improve 1000% -It would get cars off the road and provide freedom for many.
..
The cost of fantastic public transport would be ofset by the reduction in cars on the road, polution, insurance claims and increased health for the elderly - hence less cost for healthcare.
rayc, Wimborne says...
8:46am Mon 9 Nov 09
Any idea how much these vistors are contributing to the town? They come to Bournemouth and spend money that perhaps they wouldn't spend without the free travel. The problem is the council do not know what they want - they want people out of cars but they want income from car parks. They want income from everything but have no idea how to provide a service.
O'Really, Christchurch says...
8:48am Mon 9 Nov 09
rook, wimborne says...
9:00am Mon 9 Nov 09
Can someone enlighten me on the difference between the government paying for something and the taxpayers paying it? As far as most are concerned tax is tax whether local or national - we just don't want it wasted or apportioned unfairly. If the article is actually saying that Dorset taxpayers are having to top up the grant while other councils are overfunded, then I agree that's wrong, but it seems to imply that all councils are having to top up (even though Bournemouth's grant is actually increasing).
Frogham Ferret, Frogham says...
9:19am Mon 9 Nov 09
SnakeskinCowboy, Weymouth says...
9:25am Mon 9 Nov 09
Too many dangerous OAPs on the road that have perfectly good buss passes sitting on the shelves at home.
West Howe Sean, Bournemouth says...
9:27am Mon 9 Nov 09
We would then have a real incentive to turn our back on the car. And the cost would only be actual cost as there would be no need to make a profit for shareholders.
We would all win.
retired lady, Bournemouth says...
9:47am Mon 9 Nov 09
rayc, Wimborne says...
9:55am Mon 9 Nov 09
retired lady wrote:Thats what I would like to know. Are the bus companies getting a subsidy up front that would dissappear if there was no free travel? Are they paid per journey - in some places I am issued with a ticket when using the pass but not by Wilts & Dorset Without the subsidy would the bus company still have to run buses but without passsengers?
When I use my pass I am never asked my destination, so how do the bus company know how much to claim for? Does anybody know exactly how the system works?
rayc, Wimborne says...
9:59am Mon 9 Nov 09
SnakeskinCowboy wrote:How goes that stack up with the government raising the retirement age towards 70? There are bus drivers who are over 60 and I would suggest that a 60 year old experienced driver is safer than your average 21 year old any day - insurance companies think so too.
Over 60's should be given the option of giving up their cars OR getting a free bus pass. Too many dangerous OAPs on the road that have perfectly good buss passes sitting on the shelves at home.
bcf203, Bournemouth says...
10:04am Mon 9 Nov 09
I also believe that while agree should be very low cost for pensioners there should be a nominal charge per journey of say 20/30p which would not put off any passengers and would then collect money from all the visitors to the area.
pd7, Dorset says...
10:04am Mon 9 Nov 09
poolebabe, poole says...
10:05am Mon 9 Nov 09
peter hurt, adelaide says...
10:15am Mon 9 Nov 09
Another point is that most of the pensioners are also residents and continue to pay rates like the rest of the population.
Bet this Beesley chap will never have to worry about paying for a bus fare!
fedupwithjobsworths, Moordown says...
10:19am Mon 9 Nov 09
mikey2gorgeous, Bournemouth says...
10:26am Mon 9 Nov 09
We are supposed to be a civillised society - free bus travel for senior citizens is one of the marks of that.
It also has the benefit of raising the general level of non-car transport infrastructure which will benefit us all.
Dennis Neal, Colehill says...
10:27am Mon 9 Nov 09
I gave up driving 7 years ago when my eyesight was failing, this was my choice, but should not have been so. There should be compulsory eye tests for all drivers, not simply the elderly. Getting a driving licence should be dependant upon the ability to demonstrate that you are physically and mentally fit to hold one and should be renewable every year.
Get the bad drivers off the road.
I walk 3 or 4 miles every day and take the bus home, but could not do so without the benefits of free bus travel.
It seems that many people abuse the system, but who can blame them. It is a nation wide scheme and wide open to abuse.
I recently took a holiday in Torquay and used the local bus services every day to get around. The service was excellent and well used.
I would support the idea of free travel only in your own locality if that is really necessary.
Mozzer, Southbourne says...
10:29am Mon 9 Nov 09
Free travel doesn't cost anyone anything unless either a fare-paying passenger is unable to get on a bus that is full (and has 'free passengers'), or a service is only run for the benefit of those enjoying free travel (which I very much doubt)
'Free bus travel costs millions', my left foot! (I would say what Jim Royle says, but it's a polite forum here)
mikey2gorgeous, Bournemouth says...
10:30am Mon 9 Nov 09
Square Old Codger, Bournemouth says...
10:52am Mon 9 Nov 09
retired lady, Bournemouth says...
11:19am Mon 9 Nov 09
wayneofafcb, poole says...
11:19am Mon 9 Nov 09
Whilst I agree with the system, it should come from central government funds. These schemes are fine, but with council taxes on the increase, and vital services being cut,it should not be down to all council tax payers to fund the scheme. many of whom who are retired and have no income anyway bar pension.
councilworker, Dorset says...
11:23am Mon 9 Nov 09
Surely the simplest answer is that the bus companies bill central government direct and the only involvement that the local authorities have is to capture peoples information to allow them to get the cards! Then the government would also see how much it truly costs for the scheme!
colin 50, bournemouth says...
11:24am Mon 9 Nov 09
rainbowkisses, Bournemouth says...
11:25am Mon 9 Nov 09
Emulated, Bournemouth says...
11:39am Mon 9 Nov 09
Bob49, Bournemouth says...
11:43am Mon 9 Nov 09
retired lady wrote:You don't seem to quite grasp how the sysyem works. Benefits are universal as it is simpler to adjust the tax level than deal with all the variables.
I once asked an MP why some benefits (bus passes, child benefit and winter fuel payment to name a few) were not means tested. The answer was that it would cost more in admin fees to means test people than they would save!!! You couldn't make it up could you?
John T, Poole says...
11:50am Mon 9 Nov 09
Any shortfall caused by the ' high level of visitors' should be more than met by the £30 million supposedly generated by over a million visitors to the Air Show. Or did this money disappear into thin air or more likely under the sea?!
Bournemouth person, Bournemouth says...
11:51am Mon 9 Nov 09
Also why clog up the roads and have empty buses!!
Travel by public transport should be promoted to give faster and more reliable journeys and reduce carbon emissions ...
artyboy1936, says...
12:13pm Mon 9 Nov 09
It better had he said, or we will all be in the river Avon.
djd, bournemouth says...
12:22pm Mon 9 Nov 09
It doesn't matter if you have a bus pass and don't use it.. the bus company only registers your pass when you use it.
I find it odd in this area that you are never asked for your destination when you tender your pass.Other places in the country, the driver asks your destination and issues you with a zero value ticket to that destination.
Does that mean bus companies charge the maximum for each journey rather than for the distance you travel ?
Free bus travel pays for itself further north in the country simply because the Local Authorities are given more money by the Government and don't have to subsidise the scheme.
idontknowifitistrue, in the wilds says...
12:25pm Mon 9 Nov 09
[Chris], WWW says...
12:34pm Mon 9 Nov 09
.
Where did the £30m go from the Air Show. Can anyone in some sort of authority explain this. Where does all the revenue from Council Taxes from residents and traders go to, where does all the car park fees go to, where does the percentage of bus fares go to. Is it not time that McLoughlin, Beesley and Co came clean and told us, in laymans terms.
.
Of course the over 60s are entitled to free travel (No I am not over 60, yet), and why not. Of course they are entitled to the Heating Allowance, and why not.
.
There is only one body wrong on this matter, and that is the Council.
[Chris], WWW says...
12:34pm Mon 9 Nov 09
.
Where did the £30m go from the Air Show. Can anyone in some sort of authority explain this. Where does all the revenue from Council Taxes from residents and traders go to, where does all the car park fees go to, where does the percentage of bus fares go to. Is it not time that McLoughlin, Beesley and Co came clean and told us, in laymans terms.
.
Of course the over 60s are entitled to free travel (No I am not over 60, yet), and why not. Of course they are entitled to the Heating Allowance, and why not.
.
There is only one body wrong on this matter, and that is the Council.
cantique, bournemouth says...
12:56pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Mike Pickering, Bournemouth says...
1:48pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Now to operate a 'free' service, you have to pay the shareholders of the bus company the costs of operating the bus, AND an amount of profit.
You would not have had to pay this money if you had not sold the bus company.
I can't make it any simpler than this - if people in, and I use the term very loosely - positions of power do not understand this as the most important fact when talking about 'free' rides on the bus system, then there is absolutely no hope whatsoever for any rational conversation about the 'problem', and no forseeable resolution will ever be forthcoming.
What a ship of fools, I'm (nearly) at a loss for words.
Trifecta, Southbourne says...
1:58pm Mon 9 Nov 09
MoordownMarc, Bournemouth says...
2:07pm Mon 9 Nov 09
councilworker wrote:Which Council did you work for? What you state is quite untrue. Bus Companies recieve between 45% and 60% of the average cash fare paid for the route concerned - or in other words 45-60pence in the pound for a full length journey (say B'mth to Poole). Some Councils down South did also have fare money left over, Bournemouth Council £50,000 to the airshow - fare surplus from Government!
Having had some involvement with operating this scheme in one of our local authorities, I can assure you the LA's are very fed up with the way that the bus companies charge for this. Yes, they charge a full journey for each and every occasion that a concessionary travel person gets on the bus! I would imagine they get some discount on the entire amount, but it does cost a huge amount! However, it is known that some councils up north actually make some money as their grant is more than they have to pay out to the bus companies! Surely the simplest answer is that the bus companies bill central government direct and the only involvement that the local authorities have is to capture peoples information to allow them to get the cards! Then the government would also see how much it truly costs for the scheme!
GB916, christchurch says...
2:15pm Mon 9 Nov 09
>
>fa la la la la la la la la
deck the public with rubbish about a shortfall of money.....
>
>fa la la la la la la la la
They think we are stupid so lets steal the trolly>>>
Bob49, Bournemouth says...
2:32pm Mon 9 Nov 09
AKKA, Poole says...
2:59pm Mon 9 Nov 09
artyboy1936 wrote:Great joke but wrong bridge. Seldown nowhere near Avon.
I asked the bus driver,does the number 12 go over seldowns bridge, It better had he said, or we will all be in the river Avon.
Other posters have mentioned people who don't use their bus pass. If they don't get on a bus then the company can't charge for the journey so no cost.
rook, wimborne says...
3:06pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Burton Saint, Christchurch says...
3:18pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Do I need them? - not really but because I am the age I am 'entitled'.
Ridiculous really as I can afford bus fares, etc. if I want.
Stupid thing is that many people who can't afford these things who are under the age of 60 are excluded.
The whole welfare system needs reforming and elements taken away from local petty officials.
pipistrollers, Bournemouth says...
3:23pm Mon 9 Nov 09
So elderly people and disabled people who cannot drive are the latest targets for this Council it would seem yet at the same time, they are happy to pay out almost 100 thousand pounds for some agency person to do a job not worth half that wage. Could you please explain this Cllr Beesley? Of course you cant!!
Also, Beesley knows full well that people come to bournemouth with their wallets and purses ready to spend money on their holidays and day trips which more than makes up for their free bus travel.
As others have asked, what about all those millions from the air show? Where are they????
Bob49, Bournemouth says...
3:25pm Mon 9 Nov 09
ngdragon, says...
4:13pm Mon 9 Nov 09
John T, Poole says...
4:24pm Mon 9 Nov 09
[Chris], WWW says...
4:31pm Mon 9 Nov 09
.
We all accept these benefits for granted, and so we should, but do we think of the cost that has to be gained elsewhere. Nothing is really free, as what is lost somewhere is gained somewhere else.
mikey2gorgeous, Bournemouth says...
4:43pm Mon 9 Nov 09
upyourpipe, Bearcross says...
4:58pm Mon 9 Nov 09
This is just another policy instigated by the tree hugging dipsticks for climate change in an attemot to get me out of my car.
Unless i was forced to on medical grounds i would not even contemplate using busses, they are dirty, unreliable and inconvienant.
Why would i pay for my car to be taxed, insured and motd just to leave it at home and walk through the wind and rain in a vain attempt to carry a weeks shopping home on the bus.
I think that people over sixty should be asked if they want a bus pass before sending them out and then asking the council tax payer to stump up the cost, this would save thousands.
Nearly every other benifit in this country is means tested so why not bus passes.
I can understand that passes are a must for some people and i would not want to deny them the right to have one but can it really be fair that a family who live in a mansion and drive or own two or three cars should be entitled to a bus pass which we all have to pay for.
Stop dishing them out to all and sundrie and let people decide if they actually need one, this could save thousands.
jobsworthwatch, Bournemouth says...
5:56pm Mon 9 Nov 09
bcf203 wrote:When the buses were council run they took you to your destination with out taking you on a tour of Bournemouth, ie. pretty well the most direct route. Now when a bus stops at a bus stop it spends so long there that you think its broken down. When council run, they had conductors on them. Most ofthe time while under council control, most of the buses were trolley buses thereby taking the polution out of the town.
Would be a disaster if buses were put back into public ownership. Imagine if run and organised by Bournemouth Council! I also believe that while agree should be very low cost for pensioners there should be a nominal charge per journey of say 20/30p which would not put off any passengers and would then collect money from all the visitors to the area.
However in this age of the jobsworth empire biulder, HSE and PC I suspect you may be right!
bofors, bournemouth says...
6:04pm Mon 9 Nov 09
upyourpipe wrote:Havent the people in a mansion,paid in as well,surely running 2 or 3 cars means they are paying out a lot in car tax and fuel tax, which as we all know goes into the coffers.On top of that they have probably paid a lot of income tax.
In a few years i will reach the age of sixty and be entitled to a free bus pass as will my wife, will i use it, i doubt it very much but the bus companies will still recieve a certain amount of council tax payers money for suppying me and my wife for the passes.
This is just another policy instigated by the tree hugging dipsticks for climate change in an attemot to get me out of my car.
Unless i was forced to on medical grounds i would not even contemplate using busses, they are dirty, unreliable and inconvienant.
Why would i pay for my car to be taxed, insured and motd just to leave it at home and walk through the wind and rain in a vain attempt to carry a weeks shopping home on the bus.
I think that people over sixty should be asked if they want a bus pass before sending them out and then asking the council tax payer to stump up the cost, this would save thousands.
Nearly every other benifit in this country is means tested so why not bus passes.
I can understand that passes are a must for some people and i would not want to deny them the right to have one but can it really be fair that a family who live in a mansion and drive or own two or three cars should be entitled to a bus pass which we all have to pay for.
Stop dishing them out to all and sundrie and let people decide if they actually need one, this could save thousands.
gglightning, Bournemouth says...
6:13pm Mon 9 Nov 09
upyourpipe, Bearcross says...
6:29pm Mon 9 Nov 09
bofors wrote:Most of todays penshioners have paid into the system all their lives but if they are a couple of pounds over a certain amount in their savings they are denied extra penshion credits and housing benefits to name a couple.
upyourpipe wrote:Havent the people in a mansion,paid in as well,surely running 2 or 3 cars means they are paying out a lot in car tax and fuel tax, which as we all know goes into the coffers.On top of that they have probably paid a lot of income tax.
In a few years i will reach the age of sixty and be entitled to a free bus pass as will my wife, will i use it, i doubt it very much but the bus companies will still recieve a certain amount of council tax payers money for suppying me and my wife for the passes.
This is just another policy instigated by the tree hugging dipsticks for climate change in an attemot to get me out of my car.
Unless i was forced to on medical grounds i would not even contemplate using busses, they are dirty, unreliable and inconvienant.
Why would i pay for my car to be taxed, insured and motd just to leave it at home and walk through the wind and rain in a vain attempt to carry a weeks shopping home on the bus.
I think that people over sixty should be asked if they want a bus pass before sending them out and then asking the council tax payer to stump up the cost, this would save thousands.
Nearly every other benifit in this country is means tested so why not bus passes.
I can understand that passes are a must for some people and i would not want to deny them the right to have one but can it really be fair that a family who live in a mansion and drive or own two or three cars should be entitled to a bus pass which we all have to pay for.
Stop dishing them out to all and sundrie and let people decide if they actually need one, this could save thousands.
Paying into the system does not entitle you to every freebie on offer and bus passes are quite a new idea compared to most of the others.
If penshioners who own mansions and have savings that some of us can only dream of then why should they receive a bus pass when they could easily afford the fare.
Sorry to say this but there is a fixation in tis country today to have most benifets means tested and i would rather see the money that these passes cost go to people who are in fuel poverty of people who have to chose wheather to buy food or put their heating on.
As some one said above when a bus pass is used the driver has not a clue where your going nor do they scan the cards which suggests that we pay for every bus pass that is issued wheather it is used or not, this is a total waste of our money.
So who cares who has paid into the system, in these days of recession we should be watching every penny and those who are in the position of supporting themselves easily should do so without sponging from the rest of us.
To hand bus passes out to everybody over sixty is the worse case of waste i have heard of, if we go down this road then lets stop all means testing for everybody and let the over sixties claim everything from pension credit, housing benefit and bus passes what ever they earn or what ever they own, if that happens watch your tax and national insurance rise then
bobaub, Poole says...
6:40pm Mon 9 Nov 09
I am over sixty, still drive professionally, and have a bus pass. I will use my own car, drive my works bus and use any bus service with my free pass. It's called free choice.
ray142, branksome says...
6:50pm Mon 9 Nov 09
akatek, Bournemouth says...
7:00pm Mon 9 Nov 09
As to driving competence, mature drivers are far superior since they aim to help others to share use of the road system whereas the immature drivers set out to compete with everyone they encounter. The insurance companies have the resultling figures and charge accordingly. By the way, I paid tax throughout my 50 year working life and am still doing so like many other retired folk who feel we have we have already paid in full for our bus passes.
bobaub, Poole says...
7:33pm Mon 9 Nov 09
gglightning wrote:This is a government decision. Are you thinking of means testing everyone. Tax payers only need apply!
There are many pensioners who can well afford to pay the full bus fare but would resent having to should other less well off ones get free bus travel. Why not charge every O.A.P. 20p a journey? This is affordable to everyone and would help toreduce the huge cost to the taxpayers which ultimately affects the services provided to everyone.
t.p.forster, bournemouth says...
8:35pm Mon 9 Nov 09
rainbowkisses, Bournemouth says...
9:06pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Look on the bright side.....if Labour MP David Chaytor had had his way, we would be paying for all under 21s to have a free national bus pass too.
retired lady, Bournemouth says...
10:12pm Mon 9 Nov 09
Trooper2, says...
12:19pm Tue 10 Nov 09
Forgive me if I have missed any points above. I have not had time to read the entire list of comments.
I do not understand how the Government can expect us to give up our cars and get onto a public transport system which is virtually no existent.
To save money 'bus passes should be applied for if you do not have any other means of transport and you NEED them. Not given out willy-nilly to all and sundry over 60. I can hold my head up and say that I am not costing Poole council a penny for my 'bus pass. I don't have one and I never will!
All my friends have said to me "where's your 'bus pass"? They all have cars, as do I . It seems to be seen as 'clever' to waste the country's money when you don't have to.
The day I have to get on a smelly, noisy, slow 'bus that goes when it wants to, not when I want to and where it wants to go not where I want to will be the day I give up on life.
DorsetEco, Christchurch says...
11:59pm Tue 10 Nov 09
wayneofafcb, poole says...
11:21am Wed 11 Nov 09
But this seems part of Government and EU driven policy. Tax offices sold, and rented back, from private companies, costing billions extra long term.
Hospitals and schools built and rented from private companies, costing many times more than borrowing from banks. Banks which we own in many cases. Brilliant!!Aren't Tory/New Labour privitisation policies marvelous.
Splisha, bournemouth says...
8:13pm Fri 13 Nov 09
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wonderway, boscombe says...
8:23am Mon 9 Nov 09
“This year council tax payers will pick up £3.7 million of the bill with it only costing the government £1.2 million of the total,” he said.
At last Cabinet Meeting he was bragging that the council had save £600,000 on consessionary fares this year alone sooy Mr B you talk trash. You even gave Air Show £50,000 extra from this saving £70,000 to scrutiny panel to make cost savings over 2 years and £50,000 to Cabinet Member to make those cuts
Again you tell people one thing and a month later another so please be honest because the Audit Team has shown how clever this council are with money and you are the person pulling the purse strings and at present nothing adds up