ANGER OVER PC CHRISTMAS
9:25am Tuesday 19th December 2006
Comments (112) Have your say »
ANGRY parents have been complaining after a school sent letters home about the children's end of term party without mentioning Christmas.
Hill View Primary School in Bournemouth told parents that this year's traditional bash was a "Winter Party" and signed off with: "We wish you and your family a very happy holiday."
Mum Penny Turner, whose 10-year-old son Jordan has been at the school for five years, said: "As far as I'm concerned, he was going to a Christmas party. The school has always had a Christmas party.
"I rang up the school and was told that in the current climate, it was felt that the word Christmas would offend people. I think it's more offensive to presume that it would offend people. I was so angry, I let off steam.
"They've had Christmas songs in the school and the reception year also did a nativity play, which makes it all the more absurd."
Another parent contacted a radio station to sound off about the letter and Miss Turner plans to complain to the local education authority. "I'm not prepared to bring my child up in a junior school that
Your Say YourThisisdorset
ian Huxstep, says...
11:39am Tue 19 Dec 06
We have had Christmas since the Birth of Christ, well thats what its all about isn't it? It is celebrated ALL over the WORLD why change everything now. For years children have had Christmas parties, nativity plays etc. If we decide to call it a "holiday season" lets scrap the whole present idea and those who are hypocritical should not be celebrating anyway.
Paul Woodland, says...
11:47am Tue 19 Dec 06
As Noddy Holder screamed - It's Christmas!!! Political correctness gone mad YET AGAIN! Schools wary over egg and spoon races, some councils banning Christmas trees, and now this! Well done to this lady for making her feelings known. The School in question should hang it's head in shame, Christmas end of term party's have been, and should always be a great time for the kids, and the PC brigade needs to butt out!
JCM, says...
12:56pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I think the whole country is going mad. people come in to our country with different religions, some people are born here and have different religions/beliefs, they dont worry if they will offend anyone, hide holidays or leave out words or symbols to cover it up, its just some stupid idiotic people who are afraid to step on toes, if people dont like it, then tough, get used to it or leave...simple as that!
Simon Coombes, says...
1:05pm Tue 19 Dec 06
The simple fact behind this whole debate is.. PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS ARE NOT OFFENDED BY CHRISTMAS!
How long will it take for the PC brigade to get it into their thick heads?
Disappointed ex-Hill View 1978-83
How long will it take for the PC brigade to get it into their thick heads?
Disappointed ex-Hill View 1978-83
Jessica, says...
1:06pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I applaude Mrs. Turner for having her say on the matter of Christmas.
This is an Anglican country, and the celebration of Christmas is the largest festival in the Church calender.
If we allow other religions to celebrate their various festivals, why should they feel offended when we have our own?!
It's utterly absurd!
The school should be ashamed of themselves.
In an Anglican country such as ours, the children should be taught about tolerance of religious choices, not made to feel ashamed of their religious festivals by hiding them away under the guise of *Winter Holiday period*.
No wonder the Anglican Church has seen numbers drop dramtically over the last few decades.
With teaching such as this, I doubt many children even know the true meaning to Christmas!!
Preposterous!
This is an Anglican country, and the celebration of Christmas is the largest festival in the Church calender.
If we allow other religions to celebrate their various festivals, why should they feel offended when we have our own?!
It's utterly absurd!
The school should be ashamed of themselves.
In an Anglican country such as ours, the children should be taught about tolerance of religious choices, not made to feel ashamed of their religious festivals by hiding them away under the guise of *Winter Holiday period*.
No wonder the Anglican Church has seen numbers drop dramtically over the last few decades.
With teaching such as this, I doubt many children even know the true meaning to Christmas!!
Preposterous!
Tracy, says...
1:12pm Tue 19 Dec 06
My sister and I attended Hill View in the late 1970's.
All I can say is, I now feel ashamed of the blinkered view the school now appear to have towards the Christmas period.
We enjoyed nativities, Christmas parties and all that went with it in those days.
How long ago now it seems - the pre-PC brigade days when we could enjoy our celebrations, without being told that we were offending anyone!
Personally I find it all a ridiculous charade on the part of the school.
Very disappointed indeed.
All I can say is, I now feel ashamed of the blinkered view the school now appear to have towards the Christmas period.
We enjoyed nativities, Christmas parties and all that went with it in those days.
How long ago now it seems - the pre-PC brigade days when we could enjoy our celebrations, without being told that we were offending anyone!
Personally I find it all a ridiculous charade on the part of the school.
Very disappointed indeed.
Jonathan, says...
1:41pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Some points to consider:
Hill View is a Community School, not a religous School, so has no expectation to support a particular religous festival. If parents dont like this then they should send their kids to a religous School.
It is also unfortunate that the continued myth portrayed in the right wing press that Christians are not allowed to celebratre Christmas contributes to the over reaction here.
Hill View is a Community School, not a religous School, so has no expectation to support a particular religous festival. If parents dont like this then they should send their kids to a religous School.
It is also unfortunate that the continued myth portrayed in the right wing press that Christians are not allowed to celebratre Christmas contributes to the over reaction here.
Keith Baynton, says...
1:55pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Christmas is nowadays a festival fundamental to English culture rightly or wrongly regardless of religion. Atheists and members of other religions have been celebrating it for decades.
'Winterval' 'Winter Holiday' - all nonesense we already have the word for it it is called CHRISTMAS.
How sad to see my former school foolishly caught up in this PC rubbish. Whoever is responsible for bringing Hillview into this disrepute should go - now!
'Winterval' 'Winter Holiday' - all nonesense we already have the word for it it is called CHRISTMAS.
How sad to see my former school foolishly caught up in this PC rubbish. Whoever is responsible for bringing Hillview into this disrepute should go - now!
Brian, says...
2:15pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Well done Mrs Turner. Do these stupid people not realise that they offend us by withdrawing long established traditions and stopping the celebration of "Christmas". The vast majority of people of other faiths do not object to the celebration and the people behind this edict should be named, shamed and made to give a public apology. Some hopes!
steve, says...
2:46pm Tue 19 Dec 06
The PC brigade are offending this Christen country. The Sieks and Muslims I know enjoy Christmas, even taking their children to see father christmas, even decorating their shops for Christmas.
So who are we supposed to be upsetting. The majority of the British Public? I think not
So who are we supposed to be upsetting. The majority of the British Public? I think not
Karen, says...
2:50pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I'm fed up with this PC rubbish. It's a disgrace that a school is actively dissuading pupils from celebrating Christmas. It's not a Winter holiday, it's Christmas. Perhaps the Christmas school holidays should be cancelled then?
Dan, says...
3:19pm Tue 19 Dec 06
This article and the reaction of the majority of comments is just another reminder as to why I chose to leave Bournemouth and move to London. This woman's complete over reaction is utter nonsense and exactly the kind of "Daily Mail" response I have come to expect. As a former pupil of the school I would congratulate the person currently in charge there for sending holiday wishes to all of his pupils and staff, and not just a perceived majority. As a 24 year old, white, English, agnostic, gay male, I find it refreshing and polite that "holiday wishes" were sent and remind the less open minded readers and residents of Bournemouth that yes, some people may be offended by receiving Christmas wishes (including me as in my opinion Christmas is a consumer driven marketing tool). This is not political correctness gone mad, it's a way of reaching out to every single parent and pupil and involving them in a form of secular community.
I would hope that for 10 year old Jordan, this raises questions about different faiths and religion, although by the sounds of his mother, who clearly has far too much time on her hands, I fear enlightenment on such subjects will be minimal.
Unfortunately this provincial attitude will never go away, but I would urge Penny Turner, next time she's gossiping at the school gates, hatching yet another ridiculous scheme, that there are other people in this world, that don't believe in what she does, regardless of their race or religious beliefs and that she should spend her time doing something slightly more productive.
I would like to wish Mrs Turner a very very happy non religious, non-consumerist holiday!
(I'm more than happy for this to be printed in the Echo, should the need arise)
I would hope that for 10 year old Jordan, this raises questions about different faiths and religion, although by the sounds of his mother, who clearly has far too much time on her hands, I fear enlightenment on such subjects will be minimal.
Unfortunately this provincial attitude will never go away, but I would urge Penny Turner, next time she's gossiping at the school gates, hatching yet another ridiculous scheme, that there are other people in this world, that don't believe in what she does, regardless of their race or religious beliefs and that she should spend her time doing something slightly more productive.
I would like to wish Mrs Turner a very very happy non religious, non-consumerist holiday!
(I'm more than happy for this to be printed in the Echo, should the need arise)
paul, says...
3:24pm Tue 19 Dec 06
The corrosive 'respect' and 'rights' agenda is making this country a mass of bland conformity, where no-one can utter anything for fear of reprimand. I'm off to France where at least they've stood up for French tradition and free-thinking. Will the last one out please turn out the lights.
Derek Hunt, says...
3:37pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I congratulate Mrs Turner for bringing this absurd PC school head to the notice of your readers. I am offended by the PC mob refusing to acknowledge that Christians have celebrated the birth of Jesus for over 2000 years by trying to delete the word Christmas from the English language. I an not offended by seeing the words Divali or Ramadan so why should people of other faiths be offended by the word Christmas?
Dan, says...
3:39pm Tue 19 Dec 06
paul wrote:I feel I have to point out that Paul clearly doesn't spend much time watching the news. France has an education system which does not enforce religion and is completly secular.
The corrosive \'respect\' and \'rights\' agenda is making this country a mass of bland conformity, where no-one can utter anything for fear of reprimand. I\'m off to France where at least they\'ve stood up for French tradition and free-thinking. Will the last one out please turn out the lights.
Tom MacGowan, says...
3:40pm Tue 19 Dec 06
It's very laudable that Mrs Turner is taking an active interest in school matters, but surely there are more important things to concern ourselves with than this?
While Christmas has existed since the birth of Christ, celebrations during mid winter have existed for much longer than the past 2000 years. The word "Yule" has Scandinavian pagan roots, the Romans celebrated Saturnalia and Natalis Solis Invicti, and anyone wishing to look further back than this will find other examples. So, anyone fancy getting back to the real meaning of our end of year celebrations and joining me in a festival of drinking, public nudity and gambling?
While Christmas has existed since the birth of Christ, celebrations during mid winter have existed for much longer than the past 2000 years. The word "Yule" has Scandinavian pagan roots, the Romans celebrated Saturnalia and Natalis Solis Invicti, and anyone wishing to look further back than this will find other examples. So, anyone fancy getting back to the real meaning of our end of year celebrations and joining me in a festival of drinking, public nudity and gambling?
Bob Carter, says...
3:54pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I'm in.
Dave, says...
4:11pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dan
Yes Dan, as is the Gay Pride festivals and Easter, Halloween,Bonfire Night, St Valentine Day, Mothers Day, Fathers Day,Pancake Day.
Dont be such a politcally correct **** and enjoy it.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you and your family Dan.
P.S This provincial attitude - Don't you realise that Christmas is celebrated across the globe and not just in Christian countries either.
in my opinion Christmas is a consumer driven marketing tool
Yes Dan, as is the Gay Pride festivals and Easter, Halloween,Bonfire Night, St Valentine Day, Mothers Day, Fathers Day,Pancake Day.
Dont be such a politcally correct **** and enjoy it.
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you and your family Dan.
P.S This provincial attitude - Don't you realise that Christmas is celebrated across the globe and not just in Christian countries either.
Dan, says...
4:21pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dave wrote:Yes Dave, all those festivals are marketing tools, which is why I have no part in them either!
Danin my opinion Christmas is a consumer driven marketing toolYes Dan, as is the Gay Pride festivals and Easter, Halloween,Bonfire Night, St Valentine Day, Mothers Day, Fathers Day,Pancake Day. Dont be such a politcally correct **** and enjoy it. Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you and your family Dan. P.S This provincial attitude - Don't you realise that Christmas is celebrated across the globe and not just in Christian countries either.
Also, I'm completely aware that Xmas is celebrated all over the world. This issue is not about Xmas. It's about a white working class family feeling threatened at the idea that there are students in the school that may be of another religion or to be more honest, with different coloured skin. They are, in essence, racist.
Enforcing Christmas wishes upon people that don't enjoy, believe or practice it, is called opression.
And finally, I do enjoy Christmas as I don't feel the need to spend thousands of pounds on gifts and merchandise.
Nice little jibe about gay pride too. Although I'm not a miltant homosexual, pride does serve a more important function than making money for already rich people.
Keith Baynton, says...
5:09pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dan wrote:
Dave wrote:Yes Dave, all those festivals are marketing tools, which is why I have no part in them either!
Danin my opinion Christmas is a consumer driven marketing toolYes Dan, as is the Gay Pride festivals and Easter, Halloween,Bonfire Night, St Valentine Day, Mothers Day, Fathers Day,Pancake Day. Dont be such a politcally correct **** and enjoy it. Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you and your family Dan. P.S This provincial attitude - Don\'t you realise that Christmas is celebrated across the globe and not just in Christian countries either.
Also, I\'m completely aware that Xmas is celebrated all over the world. This issue is not about Xmas. It\'s about a white working class family feeling threatened at the idea that there are students in the school that may be of another religion or to be more honest, with different coloured skin. They are, in essence, racist.
Enforcing Christmas wishes upon people that don\'t enjoy, believe or practice it, is called opression.
And finally, I do enjoy Christmas as I don\'t feel the need to spend thousands of pounds on gifts and merchandise.
Nice little jibe about gay pride too. Although I\'m not a miltant homosexual, pride does serve a more important function than making money for already rich people.
They are, in essence, racist.
Enforcing Christmas wishes upon people that don't enjoy, believe or practice it, is called opression.
Steady on Dan, you are entitled to your clearly strong and very comprehensive opinions but deleting the word Christmas from a schools agenda is surely the real oppresion - it is a festival (religiously celebrated or not) that reflects the culture of this Country, to deny it is unacceptable.
As for this lady being racist I doubt there is a racist bone in her body. She like the increasingly less silent majority of English people are just fighting their corner to protect this Countries native heritage. A heritage that people who choose to live here should embrace and not be offended by. If they don't like it........
Dan, says...
5:16pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Keith,
Yet another example of provincial attitudes.
If they don't like it they can leave? Is that right? I'm sure you'd love that wouldn't you?
This is it put simply:
School says "Happy Christmas" - appeals to 80% of students and parents
School says "Happy Holidays" - appeals to all students and parents.
And the comment about this nation's heritage? Christmas is not about this. You've proved my point. You feel that different races and religions are taking over. You are trying to prtoect your "nation" by asserting our traditions. That in itself is an act of racism.
You laughably agree with me without realising it.
Yet another example of provincial attitudes.
If they don't like it they can leave? Is that right? I'm sure you'd love that wouldn't you?
This is it put simply:
School says "Happy Christmas" - appeals to 80% of students and parents
School says "Happy Holidays" - appeals to all students and parents.
And the comment about this nation's heritage? Christmas is not about this. You've proved my point. You feel that different races and religions are taking over. You are trying to prtoect your "nation" by asserting our traditions. That in itself is an act of racism.
You laughably agree with me without realising it.
Mike, says...
5:27pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dan,
You say
School says "Happy Christmas" - appeals to 80% of students and parents
School says "Happy Holidays" - appeals to all students and parents.
I would have thought that the responses so far relating to this story would tell you that Happy Holidays does not appeal to all pupils and parents.
If you are a Christian Dan then Happy Christmas (not Xmas as you like to call it), if not, then enjoy a few days off work.
You say
School says "Happy Christmas" - appeals to 80% of students and parents
School says "Happy Holidays" - appeals to all students and parents.
I would have thought that the responses so far relating to this story would tell you that Happy Holidays does not appeal to all pupils and parents.
If you are a Christian Dan then Happy Christmas (not Xmas as you like to call it), if not, then enjoy a few days off work.
HillViewInTheKnow, says...
6:31pm Tue 19 Dec 06
This article in the Echo is absolute 'poppy-****'. As someone who knows the school very well, Hill View has held superb Christmas festivities for the children this year, including parties, carol singing, nativity show and other Christmas activities. All parents of children at this school should be grateful that the school is a good, caring school with hard-working dedicated staff, including the excellent headteacher, who only ever wants the very best for all of the children in her care. Kindly find out the facts, before jumping on the Hill View-bashing band-wagon above. Merry Christmas to you all.
Blondin, says...
6:31pm Tue 19 Dec 06
If all these trendy lefty liberals don't want to celebrate CHRISTMAS perhaps they would like to work through and take NO CHRISTMAS holidays?
PC is a disease and a cancer on Western society and sadly will be its downfall. Thank God I left England some years ago and now reside in a country that repects religious holidays.
Once England was a proud nation, now its just a festering overtaxed Politically Correct mess. One day when its too late you will have lost your country and unique culture to overseas imports who's values are forced upon you all.
I remember Bournemouth when English was the common language...a very long time ago!
PC is a disease and a cancer on Western society and sadly will be its downfall. Thank God I left England some years ago and now reside in a country that repects religious holidays.
Once England was a proud nation, now its just a festering overtaxed Politically Correct mess. One day when its too late you will have lost your country and unique culture to overseas imports who's values are forced upon you all.
I remember Bournemouth when English was the common language...a very long time ago!
James, says...
6:41pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dan
All over the country all through the year different denominations and cultures celebrate their own specific festivals. Are you seriously suggesting we tell the muslims that we will celebrate eid with them but call it something so as not to offend or the hindus, perhaps diwali should be renamed festival of light. If we did that who would be most offended?
Frankly we live in a predominately christian country who will celebrate christmas with all our friends whatever their faith or creed. They can join in our christmas celebrations if they want to, it's part of our history, our culture or are we white working class to be denied that as well by the one worlders such as yourself.
Oh and Dan it's not racist to enjoy and protect ones culture, however it is racist to try and deny one doing so.
All over the country all through the year different denominations and cultures celebrate their own specific festivals. Are you seriously suggesting we tell the muslims that we will celebrate eid with them but call it something so as not to offend or the hindus, perhaps diwali should be renamed festival of light. If we did that who would be most offended?
Frankly we live in a predominately christian country who will celebrate christmas with all our friends whatever their faith or creed. They can join in our christmas celebrations if they want to, it's part of our history, our culture or are we white working class to be denied that as well by the one worlders such as yourself.
Oh and Dan it's not racist to enjoy and protect ones culture, however it is racist to try and deny one doing so.
Mike, says...
6:43pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Read this the other day- it sums up the state this country is in... "I met with my solicitor yesterday, and on his advice I wish to say the following:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, nonaddictive, gender neutral celebration of the summer solstice holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.
I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make our country great (not to imply that the UK is necessarily greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.
By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms:
This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, nonaddictive, gender neutral celebration of the summer solstice holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.
I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make our country great (not to imply that the UK is necessarily greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.
By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms:
This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."
lisa, says...
7:01pm Tue 19 Dec 06
lol - that just about sums up the whole thing!
Gary Croft, says...
7:16pm Tue 19 Dec 06
ME - Happy Holidays mate
Mate - Which one is it today?
ME - I believe it's a christian one this time
Mate - Easter?
ME - No not this time of year
Mate - Oh right, ok is it Chanukah
Me - no mate that's Jewish, think snow and snowmen and a baby
Mate - Oh yeah, it's christmas
Me - Yeah that's right, happy christmas mate
Mate - That's offensive that is
:-/
Mate - Which one is it today?
ME - I believe it's a christian one this time
Mate - Easter?
ME - No not this time of year
Mate - Oh right, ok is it Chanukah
Me - no mate that's Jewish, think snow and snowmen and a baby
Mate - Oh yeah, it's christmas
Me - Yeah that's right, happy christmas mate
Mate - That's offensive that is
:-/
Vikki, says...
7:21pm Tue 19 Dec 06
This is ridiculous.
At one time, the majority of the country was either Catholic or Christian and everyone celebrated Christmas. We don't get offended over Muslims celebrating Ramadan or Jewish people celebrating Hannukah, so why are we being made to suppress our faith in our OWN country?? It's ridiculous. How far are we going to bend before the back breaks, that's what I want to know???
Someone needs to draw a line under this Political Correctness bandwagon the country has jumped on. I'm all for others expressing different opinions and faiths but surely that means we shouldn't be suppressing our own?????
I think their reaction to this letter is absoloutely justified. If we don't react to the small things, how can we prevent the big things?
My message to the school would be that this is still a free country and if nobody has openly expressed a complaint over references to Christmas, it's nonsense to effectively 'ban' it!
At one time, the majority of the country was either Catholic or Christian and everyone celebrated Christmas. We don't get offended over Muslims celebrating Ramadan or Jewish people celebrating Hannukah, so why are we being made to suppress our faith in our OWN country?? It's ridiculous. How far are we going to bend before the back breaks, that's what I want to know???
Someone needs to draw a line under this Political Correctness bandwagon the country has jumped on. I'm all for others expressing different opinions and faiths but surely that means we shouldn't be suppressing our own?????
I think their reaction to this letter is absoloutely justified. If we don't react to the small things, how can we prevent the big things?
My message to the school would be that this is still a free country and if nobody has openly expressed a complaint over references to Christmas, it's nonsense to effectively 'ban' it!
Ivan, says...
7:28pm Tue 19 Dec 06
What a load of BOLL****!!!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY NEW YEAR and HAPPY EASTER.
MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY NEW YEAR and HAPPY EASTER.
HillViewInTheKnow, says...
7:51pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Christmas was not banned at the school. The children learnt and wrote about the Christmas story, celebrated it through nativity, carol singing in the community and in assemblies. As usual. Thank you.
indisbelief, says...
8:02pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Dan
I wish I could say I support your comments, especially as I too detest the vile 'Daily Mail' mentatlity that exists in the provinces, however, before I go off topic, can you really not see that your clearly strongly held views are the kind of thing that does more damage than good? There is one simple answer to all of this to those who think it should not be called Christmas. Heard the phrase 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it'? Well, as a gay man too, I have also one thing to say "Its Christmas - DEAL WITH IT!"
I wish I could say I support your comments, especially as I too detest the vile 'Daily Mail' mentatlity that exists in the provinces, however, before I go off topic, can you really not see that your clearly strongly held views are the kind of thing that does more damage than good? There is one simple answer to all of this to those who think it should not be called Christmas. Heard the phrase 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it'? Well, as a gay man too, I have also one thing to say "Its Christmas - DEAL WITH IT!"
adrian, says...
8:12pm Tue 19 Dec 06
i presume the staff will not be taking a christmas holiday this year,and will work at easter etc,after all they must not upset other religons,next they will stop children who`s parents have had them christend from attending school as this might upset others.i say b+++++Ks to these morons,and wish everybody a very merry CHRISTIAN CHRISTMAS HOLIDAY
THERESA, says...
9:40pm Tue 19 Dec 06
AS A PARENT OF TWO CHILDREN THAT ATTEND HILL VIEW, I CANNOT FAULT ANYTHING WITH THE SCHOOL'S CHRISTMAS CELEBRATIONS, MY KIDS HAVE THOROUGHLY ENJOYED THEMSELVES ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHER CHILDREN WITH HAPPY SMILEY FACES I HAVE SEEN AT THE SCHOOL GATES TODAY! DOES IT REALLY MATTER WHETHER IT'S CALLED A WINTER PARTY AND WE ARE WISHED HAPPY HOLIDAYS, AFTER ALL IT IS NEARLY WINTER AND WE ARE NOW ON HOLIDAYS! WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT THE KIDS HAVE REALLY ENJOYED THEIR LAST WEEK OF SCHOOL BEFORE CHRISTMAS, THE KIDS ARE HAPPY SO WHY CAN'T WE BE!! HAPPY CHRISTMAS!
Dave Turner BNP, says...
10:29pm Tue 19 Dec 06
I take on board what you say Theresa and you're quite right this has nothing to do with the teachers or the children either. Unfortunately though this kind of behaviour from the "authorities" is symptomatic of the insidious actions of the politically correct brigade.
It would be really nice if the echo could do a bit of investigative journalism and find out which person made the decision not to mention christmas on this literature so that the fury of the general public can be vented in the right direction. If this could be done two or three times I believe this would put to an end these ridiculous PC decisions.
So come on The Daily Echo hunt down this person and name and shame them.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
It would be really nice if the echo could do a bit of investigative journalism and find out which person made the decision not to mention christmas on this literature so that the fury of the general public can be vented in the right direction. If this could be done two or three times I believe this would put to an end these ridiculous PC decisions.
So come on The Daily Echo hunt down this person and name and shame them.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Jonathan, says...
11:36pm Tue 19 Dec 06
http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html
Have a read of this article for a view on the supposed 'war' on Christmas.
Have a read of this article for a view on the supposed 'war' on Christmas.
Tony, says...
11:50pm Tue 19 Dec 06
Its no good crying over spilled milk,many votes helped put the labor party in parliament,Win a few Loose a few.
Ross MacLeod, says...
6:49am Wed 20 Dec 06
This is crazy!
Since when should we not celebrate christmas is an English school? Its true that many schools now educate pupils with many different religions, but can we remember our heritage please? No one will be offended by christmas celebrations, and if they are, they really should consider the country in which they reside.
Since when should we not celebrate christmas is an English school? Its true that many schools now educate pupils with many different religions, but can we remember our heritage please? No one will be offended by christmas celebrations, and if they are, they really should consider the country in which they reside.
adrian, says...
8:05am Wed 20 Dec 06
theresa,having looked in various shops can you let me know where i can purchase happy/merry winter holiday cards and gift wrap,i am so glad my child attends a multi-racial school that still believes in tradition and family values,o.k hillview you have had your 15 mins of fame,now do what you are paid to do,educate and advise,let your pupils celebrate and enjoy christmas,
Carolyn, says...
8:41am Wed 20 Dec 06
As a retired teacher, may I point out that the current law requires that all state schools have a "corporate act of worship of a broadly Christian nature" and that parents can opt their children out of this. This does not mean that there has to be an "assembly" every day, and many schools just have a thought for the day in the classroom. The point is that pupils can be opted out - they are not opted in. This head teacher has decided to opt his/her school out - not legal. No teacher, head teacher or anyone else in the state education system should be stating their own views on religion, politics, raceism or anything else. Their job is to put all sides of a topic so that pupils can make up their own minds from the facts.
If this head wants to include everyone (rather than exclude the Christians), she could have wished them all a Merry Christmas and season's greeting to include everyone, rather than exclude the Christians.
If this head wants to include everyone (rather than exclude the Christians), she could have wished them all a Merry Christmas and season's greeting to include everyone, rather than exclude the Christians.
HillViewInTheKnow, says...
8:59am Wed 20 Dec 06
Once and for all, please believe me, Hill View probably held more Christmas celebrations than many other schools in the borough, and the children and staff had a wonderful Christmassy time - this is all blown out of huge proportion. There was never any intention to upset or exclude anyone (and nobody was!). And, Jonathan... there is certainly no 'war against Christmas' in Ensbury Park! I'm really disgusted that all this has been said about such a good school.
Marcus, says...
9:59am Wed 20 Dec 06
I'm not particulary religous, but I love this time of year. I love the corny songs, I love my children being excited. I love the way people seem happier even though they know the expense and the fact that they will have to diet "In the New Year" To be honest "Christmas" isn't about religion to me, it's about family, and laughing, and drinking. Maybe i'm shallow... I don't care Happy Christmas everybody.. and thank GOD my son goes to Moordown St Johns.
annonymous, says...
10:21am Wed 20 Dec 06
I would just like to agree with Theresa on most of her points, in as much as the school did not "ban" Christmas at all. The school was beautifully decorated and my children thoroughly enjoyed themselves with all the Christmas activities that the school laid on. However, I would like to say that we all accept that the policy of the school is an "open" policy striving to accomodate all views and traditions of the community. But it is hard to accept that loosing what could easily be deterimed as traditional values to accommodate a view, is then not accepted in a positive light. Perhaps the school should consider making alternative arrangements for those who do not wish to participate in the normal traditional festivites. Although it would appear that those who do not accept our more traditional seasonal activities, seem to have stayed away by their own choice! This has all stemed from one letter which was entitled "Winter" as opposed to "Christmas". I would like to see a policy of calling things what they are and upholding our traditional ways of celebrating and expressing. Those who wish celebrate in alternative ways, or not at all, are welcome to, but should still respect the choice of those to continue with the traditions.
Dan J, says...
10:46am Wed 20 Dec 06
it is amazing to think that these politicaly correct idiots think that by suppresing or changing the word christmas can help the current climate i would think that it dosent take a genius to realise that by doing that causes more anamosity and prejudice between ethnic groups i am yet to find anyone who celebrates any religion to be offended by christians celebrating the biggest event in the christian calender i think these pc people should wise up or **** off
Dan, says...
11:08am Wed 20 Dec 06
Why will no-one on this site recognise that this isn't an act of political correctness. It's a very basic idea that there is a forthcoming national holiday, in which all members of society are given time off. They don't however all go home and celebrate Christmas. You all write these comments under the impression that the headteacher has actually "stolen" Christmas or banned it completely.
I would pose this idea: if you had a friend of a different faith, would you wish them a Merry Christmas? I would like to think the answer would be no. You are aware of their religion. It would be strange to do it. Therfore, this politness should be extended to all aspects of society.
Secondly, what would you all do if the headteacher were to send a letter passing best wishes for another religous festival? I have a vague feeling that there would be war and the poor headteacher would dragged from his office and hoisted up on the front gates!
Just because Christianity is the prominant religion in this country, why should it's practices and celebrations be enforced upon society?
I would pose this idea: if you had a friend of a different faith, would you wish them a Merry Christmas? I would like to think the answer would be no. You are aware of their religion. It would be strange to do it. Therfore, this politness should be extended to all aspects of society.
Secondly, what would you all do if the headteacher were to send a letter passing best wishes for another religous festival? I have a vague feeling that there would be war and the poor headteacher would dragged from his office and hoisted up on the front gates!
Just because Christianity is the prominant religion in this country, why should it's practices and celebrations be enforced upon society?
Dan, says...
11:14am Wed 20 Dec 06
And one final thing!
By saying that Christianity is the national faith of the UK you are suggesting that anyone else who practices a different faith is essentially not British.
Our culture and hertige is not religous. Culture and heritage are very different.
Do describe Christmas as British heritage is mad; what about people of say Jewish or Islamic faith that were born in Britian? Does their faith therfore make them not British?
By saying that Christianity is the national faith of the UK you are suggesting that anyone else who practices a different faith is essentially not British.
Our culture and hertige is not religous. Culture and heritage are very different.
Do describe Christmas as British heritage is mad; what about people of say Jewish or Islamic faith that were born in Britian? Does their faith therfore make them not British?
rob, says...
11:27am Wed 20 Dec 06
I agree with the decision of Hill View primary school. Celebrating Christmas is like slapping the face of every British muslim. Christmas is racist.
Dan, says...
11:29am Wed 20 Dec 06
Thank you Rob!!
Although I wouldn't say the act of Chrsitmas is racist, it's a festival not celebrated by certain people, regardless of their faith.
Finally, someone who agrees.
Although I wouldn't say the act of Chrsitmas is racist, it's a festival not celebrated by certain people, regardless of their faith.
Finally, someone who agrees.
steve smith, says...
12:56pm Wed 20 Dec 06
This isn't about being 'un-pc'. It's about agnostics and atheists using other religions to justify their attitudes to religion. They would rather not think about Christmas being about Jesus, so they use other religions as an excuse to ban the word. The fact is that in Islam (possibly the second most followed religion in the UK), Jesus is a prophet and therefore highly respected. If Muslims are offended by Christmas, it's possibly because Christmas is so secularised.
P WOGDEN, says...
3:10pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Posted by: rob on Today
I agree with the decision of Hill View primary school. Celebrating Christmas is like slapping the face of every British muslim. Christmas is racist.
Why is it racist do you not realise that jesus is one of the muslim prophets.
I agree with the decision of Hill View primary school. Celebrating Christmas is like slapping the face of every British muslim. Christmas is racist.
Why is it racist do you not realise that jesus is one of the muslim prophets.
adrian, says...
3:53pm Wed 20 Dec 06
BRITISH MUSLIM ?,
denise, says...
4:14pm Wed 20 Dec 06
How can Christmas be racist - it is about the birth of Christ and is a Christian festival - as a Christian, I do not have a problem with other faiths enjoying their festivals. What happened to live and let live.
Brenda, says...
4:57pm Wed 20 Dec 06
What a load of rubbish P Wogden - if Muslims don't like us celebrating Christmas then maybe they should go live in a predominently Muslim country instead of a predominently Christian one. This PC business is just getting too ridiculous and my family are very tempted to move somewhere more Christian in outlook.
Dan, says...
5:19pm Wed 20 Dec 06
I'm loving those anti-islamic comments Brenda...the spirit of human co-existence and a multi-cultured community isn't dead after all. Oh, wait a sec...
Dave Turner BNP, says...
5:33pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Dan, what's up mate? Everytime someone disagrees with you, you kind of suggest they are racist. You should learn to be more tolerant mate everybody has a right to a point of view in a democracy and just because it's not in line with your way of thinking there is no need to stoop to the lowest of the low and start accusing people of being inadvertently racist or some such, that only stifles debate.
No be a good boy and keep the accusations to yourself there's a good chap
No be a good boy and keep the accusations to yourself there's a good chap
Dan, says...
5:34pm Wed 20 Dec 06
After another day of anti-semitism and other faith bashing, it's great to see that the people using this site are now advocating ejecting all other faiths from the Bournemouth community or even leaving the area for a more Christian one. Hilarious! Well actually it's not; it's all rather scary.
This simple letter, trying to appeal to as many people has possible, by giving this forthcoming hoilday a more generic, wider appealing name has actually caused the true feelings of many of you to emerge.
Christmas is not our "heritage". Christmas is not a display of national pride. It is a Christian festival that has managed to transcend the religous boundary into consumerism. Therefore, although there are many many people that celebrate it, some chose not to. This choice is a decision based on ethnicity, religion, or personal belief.
I commend the school involved for the wording but also commend them for holding Nativities and singing carols as parents who don't feel their children should participate can object and withdraw them.
When addressing a letter to a community however you can't ask who wants what and how they want to be addressed, which causes the need for generic salutations.
This tiny issue, has, to repeat myself, brought out a very ugly side of Bournemouth residents. Let's just hope they don't represent the majority as otherwise I fear for the children of Bournemouth and they in which they will grow up.
This simple letter, trying to appeal to as many people has possible, by giving this forthcoming hoilday a more generic, wider appealing name has actually caused the true feelings of many of you to emerge.
Christmas is not our "heritage". Christmas is not a display of national pride. It is a Christian festival that has managed to transcend the religous boundary into consumerism. Therefore, although there are many many people that celebrate it, some chose not to. This choice is a decision based on ethnicity, religion, or personal belief.
I commend the school involved for the wording but also commend them for holding Nativities and singing carols as parents who don't feel their children should participate can object and withdraw them.
When addressing a letter to a community however you can't ask who wants what and how they want to be addressed, which causes the need for generic salutations.
This tiny issue, has, to repeat myself, brought out a very ugly side of Bournemouth residents. Let's just hope they don't represent the majority as otherwise I fear for the children of Bournemouth and they in which they will grow up.
HillViewInTheKnow, says...
5:34pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Thank you radio station Wave 105 for allowing a Hill View parent to speak and say that the letters they received included reference to Christmas Parties and mentioned Christmas 6 times! Hallelujah! Merry Christmas!
P WOGDEN, says...
5:38pm Wed 20 Dec 06
if Muslims don't like us celebrating Christmas then maybe they should go live in a predominently Muslim country instead of a predominently Christian one.
BRENDA
Where has it been said that the muslims dont like us celebrating Christmas, this has nothing to do with the muslims it is all to do with the PC brigade.
BRENDA
Where has it been said that the muslims dont like us celebrating Christmas, this has nothing to do with the muslims it is all to do with the PC brigade.
Dave Turner BNP, says...
5:42pm Wed 20 Dec 06
After another day of anti-semitism and other faith bashing
Dan - Grow up
Dan, says...
5:54pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Dave Turner BNP wrote:Grow up?
After another day of anti-semitism and other faith bashingDan - Grow up
Physically maybe. Mentally, I think that's rather rich coming from a member from a member of the BNP. I can only presume that's what the letters stand for Dave?
Vikki, says...
7:28pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Dan
I really think your views on this matter are somewhat blinkered.
You say that Christianity is not our heritage as there are people from other religious backgrounds that have been born here. Fact is, the original faith of the British people is Christianity. In addition to this, your question as to how we would feel if the school sent letters referring to holidays celebrated by other religions? Frankly, I think that's a wonderful idea. We live in a multi-cultural society and if schools want to recognise Hannukah, Ramadan or any other religious holidays, I'm all for it.
But I fail to see how it is reasonable to say it is oppression to wish EVERYONE a Merry Christmas but not oppression to deny us the right to openly wish everyone a Merry Christmas?? Surely forcing us to repress our religious celebrations is also a form of oppression? I certainly believe so.
I would like to add that Christmas means different things to different people. You state it is pure consumerism. What about those who choose not to give presents but to celebrate being with the ones they love during the festive season? Of course there will always be people who favour the material side but it is unjustified to purely write it off and write everyone who celebrates it off in such a ridiculous way. Frankly, I would say your views on the matter are based on emotion, rather than fact, reading the way you lash out at others in these posts. It's hardly racist to say Merry Christmas and to think it is..well....clearly isn't really thinking.
Finally, I would like to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas, a Happy Hannukah and Best Wishes for the New Year
I really think your views on this matter are somewhat blinkered.
You say that Christianity is not our heritage as there are people from other religious backgrounds that have been born here. Fact is, the original faith of the British people is Christianity. In addition to this, your question as to how we would feel if the school sent letters referring to holidays celebrated by other religions? Frankly, I think that's a wonderful idea. We live in a multi-cultural society and if schools want to recognise Hannukah, Ramadan or any other religious holidays, I'm all for it.
But I fail to see how it is reasonable to say it is oppression to wish EVERYONE a Merry Christmas but not oppression to deny us the right to openly wish everyone a Merry Christmas?? Surely forcing us to repress our religious celebrations is also a form of oppression? I certainly believe so.
I would like to add that Christmas means different things to different people. You state it is pure consumerism. What about those who choose not to give presents but to celebrate being with the ones they love during the festive season? Of course there will always be people who favour the material side but it is unjustified to purely write it off and write everyone who celebrates it off in such a ridiculous way. Frankly, I would say your views on the matter are based on emotion, rather than fact, reading the way you lash out at others in these posts. It's hardly racist to say Merry Christmas and to think it is..well....clearly isn't really thinking.
Finally, I would like to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas, a Happy Hannukah and Best Wishes for the New Year
Clive, says...
7:50pm Wed 20 Dec 06
I agree with Dave Turner - the only organisation, and that includes the Church, that has consistantly stood up against this political correctness nonsence is the BNP! I am "cheesed off" (to put it politely) at having to tailor my cultural heritage so as not to offend the alleged sensibilities of other faiths and of no faith at all! Happy Christmas - hard luck if that greeting offends anyone!
Brenda, says...
7:53pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Replying to P Wogden - it was you who said Christmas was a slap in the face to Muslims. We celebrated Christmas in Britain long before most British Muslims moved here.
Andrew, says...
8:10pm Wed 20 Dec 06
This is another example of Politcal correctness so lets all e-mail the head teacher to let her know what ordinay people think.
Miss L Golborne.
hillviewprimary@bournemouth.gov.uk
Miss L Golborne.
hillviewprimary@bournemouth.gov.uk
Dan, says...
8:30pm Wed 20 Dec 06
I'm in the UAF.
John Blanton, says...
8:37pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Who do this PC brigade consist of? banning Christmas Partys etc, because it might offend someone.
To think like that you must have a lot of time on your hands to waste at taxpayers money.
lets get rid of the looney minoriy pc brigade who seem to be running our lives.
To think like that you must have a lot of time on your hands to waste at taxpayers money.
lets get rid of the looney minoriy pc brigade who seem to be running our lives.
Brenda, says...
8:43pm Wed 20 Dec 06
That explains it all Dan. The UAF is so well known (not) that I had to do a search to find out what it is and no wonder you don't like Christmas or anything else British probably.
Keith Gardner, says...
10:03pm Wed 20 Dec 06
Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas and after he died his apponents dug up his body cut it up into pieces and scattered it throuout the kingdom.
Jonathan, says...
11:44pm Wed 20 Dec 06
The 'war' on Christmas is a myth stirred up by right wingers, Christians and even Muslims to create sympathy for the view that religion is under threat from athiests, liberals, secularists and the 'PC Brigade'. To continue this theme there is the story at Hill View in the Echo, which has been shown to be based on misinformation & half truths. This to serve this same purpose of strengthening the myth that Christmas is underthreat from these make believe PC do gooders. Comments from other parents, teachers and Wave 105 mentioned before have shown that Christmas has been celebrated at Hill View this year as I am sure it has every year and certainly was when I was a pupil at Hill View Juniors in the late 80s.
Please could everybody take the time out to read the article I linked to yesterday - see below, then take a deep breath and move along as there really is no story here. And lets all have a very Merry Christmas.
Link here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html
Please could everybody take the time out to read the article I linked to yesterday - see below, then take a deep breath and move along as there really is no story here. And lets all have a very Merry Christmas.
Link here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html
Christopher Halton, says...
11:54pm Wed 20 Dec 06
I`m afraid things will only get worse whilst people continue to vote for Labour, The Tories or The Lib Dems. They`ve all signed up to the `big sell out` of what was once our culture and identity. Sadly, I know that some readers will disagree, but if you think things are bad now, look forward 10 years into the future. Where is Churchill when you need him?
louise, says...
12:02am Thu 21 Dec 06
Maybe what Miss Golborne should have done, was to send out a seperate letter to the ethnic minority who don't celebrate Christmas by wishing them 'happy holidays'. There are only a few who attend. As for the party, IT IS A CHRISTMAS PARTY - who has a party in aid of WINTER????!!! Winter party - have you ever heard anything like this being celebrated in a Primary School or in fact anywhere?!! Can Miss Golborne explain what is the significance of a Winter Party??? What next - the Office Xmas party will be known as the Office Winter Party!!!Surely, in a democratic country such as ours, the majority should not have our tradition of Christmas forgotton. It is traditional to wish a happy Christmas. Having children who attend Hillview, I wonder what the Head Teacher will write this time next year, we shall just have to wait and see. I admire Penny Turner for speaking out and for what she believes in. The PC Brigade are wrong to forget Christmas in case it upsets the non-believers - THE MINORITY. Christmas is a tradition in this country. It's down to people like Penny that will keep it alive. To everyone who reads this HAVE A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS. TO THOSE WHO DON'T BELIVE IN IT - MAYBE YOU SHOULD ENJOY OUR BRITISH CULTURE AND JOIN IN. THE PM WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE FOR OTHER CULTURES AND FAITHS TO BECOME MORE BRITISH. CELEBRATING CHRISMAS IS PART OF THE BRITISH CULTURE AND HAS BEEN FOR CENTURIES. Let none of us forget this.
Jonathan, says...
12:03am Thu 21 Dec 06
Hillviewintheknow,
I think you may have missed my point, I know there in no war on Christmas in Ensbury Park - and as an old pupil I know what a good Shcool Hill View was and I am sure is.
This Echo report is just another example of the myth being created that Christmas is being banned and as I mentioned before to try and give support to the idea that religions are under threat from the left and the make believe PC Brigade
I think you may have missed my point, I know there in no war on Christmas in Ensbury Park - and as an old pupil I know what a good Shcool Hill View was and I am sure is.
This Echo report is just another example of the myth being created that Christmas is being banned and as I mentioned before to try and give support to the idea that religions are under threat from the left and the make believe PC Brigade
Christopher Halton, says...
12:05am Thu 21 Dec 06
rob wrote:How on earth can Christmas be `racist`?
I agree with the decision of Hill View primary school. Celebrating Christmas is like slapping the face of every British muslim. Christmas is racist.
May I then suggest that based on your twisted rationale we should ban all other faith celebrations as likewise `racist`?
After all, that would be the P.C path to logically follow?
Or is simply being a Christian an affront to Lefties and Commies like Dan and Rob?
Or if not Left-wing, do you simply hate your own culture? May I suggest you both migrate to the third world and do wonderful things for humanity? Your communication skills there will surely be appreciated..
Jonathan, says...
12:12am Thu 21 Dec 06
Lousie,
There is no PC Brigade out to stop everyone enjoying Christmas in case it offends minorities. This is made up nonsense - please, please read this article - you'll need to copy and paste the link into your browser as you cannot add a hyperlink here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html
Thanks,
There is no PC Brigade out to stop everyone enjoying Christmas in case it offends minorities. This is made up nonsense - please, please read this article - you'll need to copy and paste the link into your browser as you cannot add a hyperlink here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/christmas2006/story/0,,1967367,00.html
Thanks,
LondonAmateurPoker.co.uk, says...
12:20am Thu 21 Dec 06
Eid is Eid, Diwalli is Diwalli, Etc Therefore let christmas remain christmas - but quit with the wishy washy lets excuse everybody approach Jonathan.
The fact is All religions celebrate to some degree and no one cares - so PC brigade just quit it. Me I hate Xmas
The fact is All religions celebrate to some degree and no one cares - so PC brigade just quit it. Me I hate Xmas
trevor, says...
12:27am Thu 21 Dec 06
What dan dosent realise is that those peaple he so fervently defends find his personal lifestyle distastefull,and would be one of the first for the gibet should they be allowed to hold any power within this democacy
Louise, says...
12:52am Thu 21 Dec 06
Jonathan,
Could you be kind enough to explain what is the signifigance of a 'WINTER PARTY'and what would have been so offensive to wish everyone a 'Happy Christmas' as has always been done in previous years? When Penny Turner rang the school she says 'I rang up the school and was told that in the current climate, it was felt that the word Christmas would offend people' Why would the school make this statement? Did any of the parents who don't celebrate Christmas complain to the School that if this word was mentioned it would offend them?? It all seems rather sad to me that the school should take this view. I know a mother at Hillview who is English and her Husband is Muslim, she told me that she or her family would not at all have been offended if Christmas had been mentioned. If anything, what the school said and has now been published by the Echo, it singles her and her children out as to why things have changed even though as a family they celebrate Xmas, but being mixed race, other people may not realise this. Because of comments such as the school has made, is how families and their children are made to feel isolated. Please Hillview, think twice next Christmas how you word letters and keep the 'Christmas Party' and wish every one a 'Happy Christmas' alive.
Could you be kind enough to explain what is the signifigance of a 'WINTER PARTY'and what would have been so offensive to wish everyone a 'Happy Christmas' as has always been done in previous years? When Penny Turner rang the school she says 'I rang up the school and was told that in the current climate, it was felt that the word Christmas would offend people' Why would the school make this statement? Did any of the parents who don't celebrate Christmas complain to the School that if this word was mentioned it would offend them?? It all seems rather sad to me that the school should take this view. I know a mother at Hillview who is English and her Husband is Muslim, she told me that she or her family would not at all have been offended if Christmas had been mentioned. If anything, what the school said and has now been published by the Echo, it singles her and her children out as to why things have changed even though as a family they celebrate Xmas, but being mixed race, other people may not realise this. Because of comments such as the school has made, is how families and their children are made to feel isolated. Please Hillview, think twice next Christmas how you word letters and keep the 'Christmas Party' and wish every one a 'Happy Christmas' alive.
Frederick Locke, says...
1:27am Thu 21 Dec 06
It's no good endlessly complaining...The persons name should be sought who made the decision and all children should be 'withdrawn' from the school until that person is sacked...Thats the ONLY way to deal with these sick people..
Mark Trudgill, says...
1:30am Thu 21 Dec 06
Jonathan, my comments were and still are directed to Dan. He brought his sexuality into the fray, in a futile attempt to exempt himself from criticism.
I pointed out in my own inimitable way that just because a certain section of society Namely his kind (and not the gay community as a whole) believes that another section of the community finds something offesive regardless of how erronious his view may be. He's failing to take into account the rule of unintended consequencies. Namely heading down the road of banning something because it doesn't quite fit with his political bias leaves for example his lifestyle open to question with the precident he set in motion. I hope that's clarified my position somewhat.
I pointed out in my own inimitable way that just because a certain section of society Namely his kind (and not the gay community as a whole) believes that another section of the community finds something offesive regardless of how erronious his view may be. He's failing to take into account the rule of unintended consequencies. Namely heading down the road of banning something because it doesn't quite fit with his political bias leaves for example his lifestyle open to question with the precident he set in motion. I hope that's clarified my position somewhat.
Dan, says...
2:05am Thu 21 Dec 06
Gosh, I just got in from the pub, posted a message and have suddenly seen that I'm now a communist!
Am I able to be gay and communist? Who knows?
Am I able to be gay and communist? Who knows?
anon, says...
2:20am Thu 21 Dec 06
My friend has children at Hillview. One is in year one and this year, they could not take in party clothes for the 'Christmas Party' (aka Winter Party)although the other years could. The other years could bring in typical party food to share, ie chocolate fingers, sandwiches, sausage rolls etc,biscuits etc however, in year 1, due to a few who had food allergies all the children had to bring in their own packed lunch but were not allowed the typical party food as the other years were. I thought this was a bit harsh as did several other mothers. Would it not have been fairer for these few children who had allergies to bring in their own packed lunch, and for the others to have party food? This is yet another event at Hillview of the PC Brigade being in control over the children and their parents. If it had been one of my children with a food allergy and I was that worried, I can honestly say that I would have explained to them, that they could not attend the party as it was unfair on most of the children and bring them home or attend the party with them to ensure that they did not eat any of the food brought in. When the School has the end of term discos, the amount of rubbish they sell to young children at extorted prices is disgraceful. At the last Disco some items were £1 each. Children, especially the younger ones do not realise the value of money. The school as a whole should change their morals. Year 1 were not allowed sweet things at the 'Christmas Party' and yet have so many on sale, full of sugar and E's at the discos. The children are so hyped up when collected. The school should charge 20p for a 'goody bag' with a small selection of sweets instead of making profit for the PTA at the cost of the childrens health - especially their teeth. Hillview should take note of whats more important.
Christopher Halton, says...
9:07am Thu 21 Dec 06
Dan wrote:Funnily enough DAN I never mentioned your sexuality. You whinge about others attacking it, but at the first opportunity you can`t resist waving your `Gay` credentials..
Gosh, I just got in from the pub, posted a message and have suddenly seen that I'm now a communist!
Am I able to be gay and communist? Who knows?
As someone pointed out earlier in a post, if your new British friends get into power, you won`t be bragging about your GAY credentials.. Err, will you?
PS: I really don`t care about a persons sexuality, but I detest those that continuously rant about it. I just think you love being a complete irritant.
Chris Hannant, says...
9:41am Thu 21 Dec 06
Dear Sir, Madam
Happy Holiday and Winter Parties in schools is a typicl exmple of PC gone mad. Where as I agree that minoritiy groups can enhance the 'British experience' for us English people our traditions, cultural identity is being eroded by the very thought of upseting those from other cultures. Well tough! When in Rome do as the Romans do. Why should our children be denied the magic of Christmas just because of a handful of minorities in attendance? I support the parents of Hill View in their anger over such a stupid decission. This is England we are English and we are a Christian country which has celebrated Christmas for Cenuries. No doubt all the bleeding hearts out there will be burning copies of A Christmas Carol and the Bible Christmas Trees and Presents as we dont want to upset our overseas guests.
Happy Holiday and Winter Parties in schools is a typicl exmple of PC gone mad. Where as I agree that minoritiy groups can enhance the 'British experience' for us English people our traditions, cultural identity is being eroded by the very thought of upseting those from other cultures. Well tough! When in Rome do as the Romans do. Why should our children be denied the magic of Christmas just because of a handful of minorities in attendance? I support the parents of Hill View in their anger over such a stupid decission. This is England we are English and we are a Christian country which has celebrated Christmas for Cenuries. No doubt all the bleeding hearts out there will be burning copies of A Christmas Carol and the Bible Christmas Trees and Presents as we dont want to upset our overseas guests.
Anon, says...
10:10am Thu 21 Dec 06
This is clearly disgusting! By this school doing so dont they realise that the majority of people who DO celebrate christmas will be highly and extremely offended. Muslims and other people do not get offended, i have quite a few muslim friends and they say so. Heck even one of them celebrates christmas because they enjoy the feeling! Im not against other religeons in any way, but i am against idiot school workers that think people will get offended by silly things.
Dan, says...
10:16am Thu 21 Dec 06
Christopher Halton wrote:I haven't waved my gay credentials at all. Some rather offensive comments were written about gay men, and you proceeded to call me a communist! I felt that a response was needed.
Dan wrote: Gosh, I just got in from the pub, posted a message and have suddenly seen that I'm now a communist! Am I able to be gay and communist? Who knows?Funnily enough DAN I never mentioned your sexuality. You whinge about others attacking it, but at the first opportunity you can`t resist waving your `Gay` credentials.. As someone pointed out earlier in a post, if your new British friends get into power, you won`t be bragging about your GAY credentials.. Err, will you? PS: I really don`t care about a persons sexuality, but I detest those that continuously rant about it. I just think you love being a complete irritant.
And I'm really trying not to be an irritant. I'm just trying to present an alternative view; the basic structure of a debate.
Christopher Halton, says...
10:56am Thu 21 Dec 06
Dan - Methinks you tell porkies, or at the very least don`t bother to read what you or others have written in more detail. I stated (to paraphrase) you or Rob to be either Commies or at least Lefties.
So what are you? You certainly are not Right Wing or Middle Ground. Just one final point, you`ve used the GAY word in virtually all your posts. Yes, we know you are GAY - What the heck has this to do with Schools..
Oh never mind.
So what are you? You certainly are not Right Wing or Middle Ground. Just one final point, you`ve used the GAY word in virtually all your posts. Yes, we know you are GAY - What the heck has this to do with Schools..
Oh never mind.
Dan, says...
11:07am Thu 21 Dec 06
Christopher Halton wrote:Christopher,
Dan - Methinks you tell porkies, or at the very least don`t bother to read what you or others have written in more detail. I stated (to paraphrase) you or Rob to be either Commies or at least Lefties. So what are you? You certainly are not Right Wing or Middle Ground. Just one final point, you`ve used the GAY word in virtually all your posts. Yes, we know you are GAY - What the heck has this to do with Schools.. Oh never mind.
I've only used that word beacuse many of you have used it in your arguments as an attack.
I would urge you to read back and see this for yourself. I mentioned it once in my original argument, to give people an idea of who I was and how I lead my life. I also mentioned that I was 24. Nobody seems to have said anything about that.
And yes, I'm certainly not of right wing persuasion.
K Williams, says...
11:12am Thu 21 Dec 06
I agree with the schools decision to change it to a 'Winter Party' as my best friend at school was a strict Jehovas Witness so her parents would not let her par-take in a Christmas party. Simply re-phrasing it means that no child misses out and it is not the school trying to cause controversy but simply include all children and move with the times.Complaining to the local authorities is stupid, they have more important things to resolve then what a party is named! Get realistic and accept that schools have to make changes due to cultural changes
Dan, says...
11:13am Thu 21 Dec 06
K Williams wrote:K Williams. Thank you!
I agree with the schools decision to change it to a 'Winter Party' as my best friend at school was a strict Jehovas Witness so her parents would not let her par-take in a Christmas party. Simply re-phrasing it means that no child misses out and it is not the school trying to cause controversy but simply include all children and move with the times.Complaining to the local authorities is stupid, they have more important things to resolve then what a party is named! Get realistic and accept that schools have to make changes due to cultural changes
annonymous, says...
1:25pm Thu 21 Dec 06
anon wrote:Dear Anonymous, I feel I must respond to your comments regarding the Hill View School discos and the role of the PTFA. (Although this does not have anything to do with the "Christmas Issue") All of our members work very hard to raise funds for the school to be able to purchase additional resources and ALL of the funds raised are given back to the school and NOT the PTFA!!! With regards to the sweet issue, it is impossible for us to "police" the amount of money the children bring to these discos, therefore, we cannot "police" how many sweets they buy. We have over the last few discos had other things on offer to purchase non sweet i.e. purses, glo necklaces, snap bracelets and a mum did hair braiding. Which we do not make a huge profit on!!!! But I would like to add that we have been looking for alternative fund raising ideas for the discos apart from sweets. Finally, The PTFA at Hill View do take the health of the children seriously and to intimate that we do not is very hurtful.
My friend has children at Hillview. One is in year one and this year, they could not take in party clothes for the 'Christmas Party' (aka Winter Party)although the other years could. The other years could bring in typical party food to share, ie chocolate fingers, sandwiches, sausage rolls etc,biscuits etc however, in year 1, due to a few who had food allergies all the children had to bring in their own packed lunch but were not allowed the typical party food as the other years were. I thought this was a bit harsh as did several other mothers. Would it not have been fairer for these few children who had allergies to bring in their own packed lunch, and for the others to have party food? This is yet another event at Hillview of the PC Brigade being in control over the children and their parents. If it had been one of my children with a food allergy and I was that worried, I can honestly say that I would have explained to them, that they could not attend the party as it was unfair on most of the children and bring them home or attend the party with them to ensure that they did not eat any of the food brought in. When the School has the end of term discos, the amount of rubbish they sell to young children at extorted prices is disgraceful. At the last Disco some items were £1 each. Children, especially the younger ones do not realise the value of money. The school as a whole should change their morals. Year 1 were not allowed sweet things at the 'Christmas Party' and yet have so many on sale, full of sugar and E's at the discos. The children are so hyped up when collected. The school should charge 20p for a 'goody bag' with a small selection of sweets instead of making profit for the PTA at the cost of the childrens health - especially their teeth. Hillview should take note of whats more important.
Martin, says...
1:48pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Dan J wrote:Speaking as a Christian....probably the biggest event in the Christian calendar is actually Easter, because it represents the sacrifice made by Jesus, forgiveness of sins, freedom and eternal life. The story of the birth of Jesus actually only appears at the start of two Gospels (Matthew and Luke). The bulk of the New Testament is about the subsequent events in the life of Jesus and what it means to live life as a Christian.
it is amazing to think that these politicaly correct idiots think that by suppresing or changing the word christmas can help the current climate i would think that it dosent take a genius to realise that by doing that causes more anamosity and prejudice between ethnic groups i am yet to find anyone who celebrates any religion to be offended by christians celebrating the biggest event in the christian calender i think these pc people should wise up or **** off
Karl Faulkner, says...
2:26pm Thu 21 Dec 06
I've had just about enough of these 'PC' morons telling us what to do.It's about time we stood up for our British culture and traditons.
Roll on the 07 local elections, I'll be voting British National Party
Roll on the 07 local elections, I'll be voting British National Party
TheVoice, says...
3:31pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Posted by: Dan on 11:08am Wed 20 Dec 06
"...It's a very basic idea that there is a forthcoming national holiday, in which all members of society are given time off. They don't however all go home and celebrate Christmas..."
I'm sorry, but you are plainly and simply quite wrong with this assertion. There isn't just a national holiday coming up, as you claim. There is a national Christmas holiday coming up, which there always has been and always will be.
We all at the very minimum get Christmas Eve (24/12), Christmas Day (25/12) and Boxing Day (26/12) off and those who are lucky enough might get a few other extra days too.
This gesture, at a time of supposed good will to all is extended to everybody, irrespective of anything else that people try to cloud the issue with. Whether they choose to celebrate Christmas thereafter is entirely their choice. But the holiday is for Christmas, end of! And for anyone to suggest that the holiday period isn't as a result of Christmas is a nonsense.
Furthermore, I hear so much about Muslim's in particular being offended by Christmas, which again is just lefty clap trap- the spawn of communist and Marxist ideology, perpetuated by self loathing, insipid liberals, who actually CAUSE offence to Muslims by presuming their offence and dragging them into a furore than many neither want or ask for. Yet are then forced to defend themselves against.
And just to support my claim, one of my best friends is a Muslim, of Turkish-Pakistani decent and celebrates Christmas. They have the tree up, make Christmas dinner and exchange gifts. And I've just received a lovely Christmas card and tin of chocolates from my next door neighbour, who too is a Muslim of Pakistani decent.
There is nothing more offensive to me, than these typically, white middle class, Guardian reading, self apologetic do-gooders grovelling to themselves about a culture, such as Islam, which they pretend to yet categorically fail to grasp every single time.
Can I ask that such people be banned as to cease my being routinely offended?
"...It's a very basic idea that there is a forthcoming national holiday, in which all members of society are given time off. They don't however all go home and celebrate Christmas..."
I'm sorry, but you are plainly and simply quite wrong with this assertion. There isn't just a national holiday coming up, as you claim. There is a national Christmas holiday coming up, which there always has been and always will be.
We all at the very minimum get Christmas Eve (24/12), Christmas Day (25/12) and Boxing Day (26/12) off and those who are lucky enough might get a few other extra days too.
This gesture, at a time of supposed good will to all is extended to everybody, irrespective of anything else that people try to cloud the issue with. Whether they choose to celebrate Christmas thereafter is entirely their choice. But the holiday is for Christmas, end of! And for anyone to suggest that the holiday period isn't as a result of Christmas is a nonsense.
Furthermore, I hear so much about Muslim's in particular being offended by Christmas, which again is just lefty clap trap- the spawn of communist and Marxist ideology, perpetuated by self loathing, insipid liberals, who actually CAUSE offence to Muslims by presuming their offence and dragging them into a furore than many neither want or ask for. Yet are then forced to defend themselves against.
And just to support my claim, one of my best friends is a Muslim, of Turkish-Pakistani decent and celebrates Christmas. They have the tree up, make Christmas dinner and exchange gifts. And I've just received a lovely Christmas card and tin of chocolates from my next door neighbour, who too is a Muslim of Pakistani decent.
There is nothing more offensive to me, than these typically, white middle class, Guardian reading, self apologetic do-gooders grovelling to themselves about a culture, such as Islam, which they pretend to yet categorically fail to grasp every single time.
Can I ask that such people be banned as to cease my being routinely offended?
Dan, says...
3:45pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Gosh, "TheVoice", what a comprehensive yet rather blinkered argument.
The very idea, in which you state that you have a muslim friend who celebrates Christmas, is once again resulting in the lack of thought for the rest of society. That ONE friend does not represent the entire muslim faith. There are still many many more that may be offended.
Also, my argument has never been about muslims taking offence. It is about ALL other religions or beliefs taking offence. The clouded views of the provinces once again relate this to islam.
Many varied people don't celebrate Christmas. I would make a list of other religions but we'd be here all day.
And if I were you, I'd try reading the Guardian. It might enlighten you on such subjects.
The very idea, in which you state that you have a muslim friend who celebrates Christmas, is once again resulting in the lack of thought for the rest of society. That ONE friend does not represent the entire muslim faith. There are still many many more that may be offended.
Also, my argument has never been about muslims taking offence. It is about ALL other religions or beliefs taking offence. The clouded views of the provinces once again relate this to islam.
Many varied people don't celebrate Christmas. I would make a list of other religions but we'd be here all day.
And if I were you, I'd try reading the Guardian. It might enlighten you on such subjects.
David Cooke, says...
5:27pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Penny Turner says "I rang up the school and was told that in the current climate, it was felt that the word Christmas would offend people."
That, surely, is what this is all about. As long as you have mutually incompatible cultures sharing the same physical space there will always be things that "offend people".
This is NOT a multi-cultural society. It's nothing more than a collection of isolated, culturally-defined, self-interest groups with NOTHING in common other than the need to earn a living in this country.
Having just escaped from a city that is slowly being taken over by immigrants, I am of the opinion that multiculturalism exists only in the deluded fantasies of those white, middle-class know-nothings who have never been forced to live cheek-by-jowl with the consequences of their own crackpot ideology.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
That, surely, is what this is all about. As long as you have mutually incompatible cultures sharing the same physical space there will always be things that "offend people".
This is NOT a multi-cultural society. It's nothing more than a collection of isolated, culturally-defined, self-interest groups with NOTHING in common other than the need to earn a living in this country.
Having just escaped from a city that is slowly being taken over by immigrants, I am of the opinion that multiculturalism exists only in the deluded fantasies of those white, middle-class know-nothings who have never been forced to live cheek-by-jowl with the consequences of their own crackpot ideology.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
Ollie W, says...
6:24pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Please will everyone just CALM DOWN, yes? This is NOT the cancellation of Christmas, this is NOT the end of Christianity, nor is it, as was laughably suggested on today's letters page in the Echo, a sign of the coming Marxist revolt. It is simply a school including all of its pupils, regardless of colour or creed, in the end of term celebrations. They probably weren't worried about causing offence, but instead choosing an easy way to wish children of every faith an enjoyable break.
And as was pointed out in today's paper, Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be able to attend a Christmas party, but a Winter Party is all good. It is simply tactics of INCLUSION.
So will everyone stop crying about some wording and go about your business. They still had a party, and Christmas is, at time of writing, still going ahead. So what is actually the problem?
And as was pointed out in today's paper, Jehovah's Witnesses wouldn't be able to attend a Christmas party, but a Winter Party is all good. It is simply tactics of INCLUSION.
So will everyone stop crying about some wording and go about your business. They still had a party, and Christmas is, at time of writing, still going ahead. So what is actually the problem?
Christopher Halton, says...
6:42pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Dan wrote:Dan`s absolutely right - yet again! We mus`nt allow our culture and traditions to offend muslims.
Gosh, "TheVoice", what a comprehensive yet rather blinkered argument.
The very idea, in which you state that you have a muslim friend who celebrates Christmas, is once again resulting in the lack of thought for the rest of society. That ONE friend does not represent the entire muslim faith. There are still many many more that may be offended.
Also, my argument has never been about muslims taking offence. It is about ALL other religions or beliefs taking offence. The clouded views of the provinces once again relate this to islam.
Many varied people don't celebrate Christmas. I would make a list of other religions but we'd be here all day.
And if I were you, I'd try reading the Guardian. It might enlighten you on such subjects.
This, after all is a multi-ethnically enriched country, and as our friends from overseas are now staying here as permanant residents we must show our diversity allegience by banning all of our silly and outmoded christian customs just in case one poor non-christian soul takes offence.
However, in the `real world` many muslims that live here share our culture without issue or complaint, as with the Jews and Hindu`s.
I think `Dan the Man` should take his cause to Pakistan and elsewhere in the outer `enriched` world and insist they abandon their non-christian religious celebrations as there might at least be one christian resident who might possibly object and be `offended`.
I`m pretty sure Dan and his `Guardanista` chums will be welcomed with open arms!
What say you Dan - When are you going?
Sorry, I realise that all of what I have said is common logic, a thought process long since abandoned in your `pithy` remarks.
By the way, shouldn`t the publishers of the Guardian also print their bile in many other languages as not to offend foreigners that don`t like or want to speak/read English?
After all, `multi-culti` is the buzz word here!
Christopher Halton, says...
6:58pm Thu 21 Dec 06
David Cooke wrote:David,
Penny Turner says \"I rang up the school and was told that in the current climate, it was felt that the word Christmas would offend people.\"
That, surely, is what this is all about. As long as you have mutually incompatible cultures sharing the same physical space there will always be things that \"offend people\".
This is NOT a multi-cultural society. It\'s nothing more than a collection of isolated, culturally-defined, self-interest groups with NOTHING in common other than the need to earn a living in this country.
Having just escaped from a city that is slowly being taken over by immigrants, I am of the opinion that multiculturalism exists only in the deluded fantasies of those white, middle-class know-nothings who have never been forced to live cheek-by-jowl with the consequences of their own crackpot ideology.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
You have hit the nail on the head here.
I long ago concluded that it is the `trendy white liberals` who are the culprits in these issues.
I believe they are deliberately invoking race/religion tension by their insane and illogical beliefs.
I don`t personally celebrate Christmas - it had long been hijacked by commercialism and not within the spirit of giving and receiving.
However, to a child - regardless of colour or belief, it is a magical period in their lives.
I think Dan and his chums should reflect on how their own beliefs are damaging society as a whole.
I H Smith, says...
10:03pm Thu 21 Dec 06
A problem I find these days is that teaching staff indicate a tendency to be King amongst kids and to be a kid amongst people.
roy, says...
11:28pm Thu 21 Dec 06
Dan......your main point appears to be that wishing people a Happy Christmas en mass would offend a minority section of the community.
if these people are so offended by the word Christmas, would you also advocate the banning of all Christmas decorations/trees etc from public places, as the sight of such would surely offend them equally?
if these people are so offended by the word Christmas, would you also advocate the banning of all Christmas decorations/trees etc from public places, as the sight of such would surely offend them equally?
trevor, says...
11:59pm Thu 21 Dec 06
ollie,
prehaps they should have thought about how offensive there self righteous actions would be to the majority of the population.This PC nonsense, that has swept this nation over the past few years will be seen for what it is, and be short lived.As infact we are seeing all over europe.Commonsense will once again be allowed to permeate to the top.
prehaps they should have thought about how offensive there self righteous actions would be to the majority of the population.This PC nonsense, that has swept this nation over the past few years will be seen for what it is, and be short lived.As infact we are seeing all over europe.Commonsense will once again be allowed to permeate to the top.
Mark Trudgill, says...
1:18am Fri 22 Dec 06
K Williams, May I ask you a question?
How many legs does a sheep have if you call its tail a leg?
The answer is 4, as you can call its tail anything you wish but it's still a tail.
As for your JW friend, would this Christmas party have any religious ceremony/worship as part of the festivities? If it doesn't, why would your JW friend feel the need to exclude themselves/children form attending?
To say that calling the party a winter party instead of any mention of the word Christmas will somehow make it more inclusive is I'm sorry to say bordering on buffoonary. The party is nothing more than a set 2 hour period where the little darlings gorge themselves silly on curly sandwiches, cream cake, icecream and fizzy pop. Nothing of any religious significance has occured, so why do you think it isn't all inclusive?
How many legs does a sheep have if you call its tail a leg?
The answer is 4, as you can call its tail anything you wish but it's still a tail.
As for your JW friend, would this Christmas party have any religious ceremony/worship as part of the festivities? If it doesn't, why would your JW friend feel the need to exclude themselves/children form attending?
To say that calling the party a winter party instead of any mention of the word Christmas will somehow make it more inclusive is I'm sorry to say bordering on buffoonary. The party is nothing more than a set 2 hour period where the little darlings gorge themselves silly on curly sandwiches, cream cake, icecream and fizzy pop. Nothing of any religious significance has occured, so why do you think it isn't all inclusive?
keith fisher, says...
1:50am Fri 22 Dec 06
Help!!!!!
Will somebody please come to rescue our Country before its too late .
Will somebody please come to rescue our Country before its too late .
TheVoice, says...
2:52am Fri 22 Dec 06
"...Dan wrote:
Gosh, "TheVoice", what a comprehensive yet rather blinkered argument.
The very idea, in which you state that you have a muslim friend who celebrates Christmas, is once again resulting in the lack of thought for the rest of society. That ONE friend does not represent the entire muslim faith. There are still many many more that may be offended.
Also, my argument has never been about muslims taking offence. It is about ALL other religions or beliefs taking offence. The clouded views of the provinces once again relate this to islam.
Many varied people don't celebrate Christmas. I would make a list of other religions but we'd be here all day.
And if I were you, I'd try reading the Guardian. It might enlighten you on such subjects..."
Dan, I didn't purport that one friend represents the Muslim faith; I merely stated that two known associates, who are Muslim, are categorically NOT offended by the national celebration of Christmas. The fact that they and their families also partake in the seasons' festivities diminishes the ill-conceived notion that we have to change our traditions to appease minority beliefs.
Likewise, your minority view, thankfully, isn't indicative of what the majority of the populous believe, and whilst you concur that many, many more may be offended at the very idea of Christmas, or the kind sentiments expressed by one to another at Christmas, I can state with near certainty that many, many, many, many, many more will DEFINITELY be offended should a tiny faction of society, without any mandate of popular consensus, continue to try and erode our traditions or change time honoured celebrations. Like it or not, the way things work here, the way that they have always worked and will continue to work is that the majority will always have the sway. I know it's a cliché, but it really is apt to quote that "when in Rome do as the Romans do".
If such a demonstration of good will causes you so much offence, then as suggested by another contributor here, you could always visit another country where Christmas isn't celebrated. Why not try Iran? As a gay person, you might not get out of there alive, but at least you won't have to be subjected to the offence of someone saying something as repugnant to you "Merry Christmas, Dan!"
If you decide to stay, then you need to be aware that on the 24th Day of the 12th month as the clock strikes midnight, you shall be visited by three spirits ... the spirit of Christmas past, Christmas present and Christmas future...
I'll say no more... ;-)
Gosh, "TheVoice", what a comprehensive yet rather blinkered argument.
The very idea, in which you state that you have a muslim friend who celebrates Christmas, is once again resulting in the lack of thought for the rest of society. That ONE friend does not represent the entire muslim faith. There are still many many more that may be offended.
Also, my argument has never been about muslims taking offence. It is about ALL other religions or beliefs taking offence. The clouded views of the provinces once again relate this to islam.
Many varied people don't celebrate Christmas. I would make a list of other religions but we'd be here all day.
And if I were you, I'd try reading the Guardian. It might enlighten you on such subjects..."
Dan, I didn't purport that one friend represents the Muslim faith; I merely stated that two known associates, who are Muslim, are categorically NOT offended by the national celebration of Christmas. The fact that they and their families also partake in the seasons' festivities diminishes the ill-conceived notion that we have to change our traditions to appease minority beliefs.
Likewise, your minority view, thankfully, isn't indicative of what the majority of the populous believe, and whilst you concur that many, many more may be offended at the very idea of Christmas, or the kind sentiments expressed by one to another at Christmas, I can state with near certainty that many, many, many, many, many more will DEFINITELY be offended should a tiny faction of society, without any mandate of popular consensus, continue to try and erode our traditions or change time honoured celebrations. Like it or not, the way things work here, the way that they have always worked and will continue to work is that the majority will always have the sway. I know it's a cliché, but it really is apt to quote that "when in Rome do as the Romans do".
If such a demonstration of good will causes you so much offence, then as suggested by another contributor here, you could always visit another country where Christmas isn't celebrated. Why not try Iran? As a gay person, you might not get out of there alive, but at least you won't have to be subjected to the offence of someone saying something as repugnant to you "Merry Christmas, Dan!"
If you decide to stay, then you need to be aware that on the 24th Day of the 12th month as the clock strikes midnight, you shall be visited by three spirits ... the spirit of Christmas past, Christmas present and Christmas future...
I'll say no more... ;-)
Christopher Halton, says...
11:59am Fri 22 Dec 06
Dan The Man ha now gone strangely silent.Perhaps he has moved to trendy London where his demented `Guardianale` views will surely be more appreciated. Bye Dan!!
Happy Christmas..
Happy Christmas..
Ollie W, says...
7:41pm Fri 22 Dec 06
Trevor,
If the majority of the population was offended by the omission of the word Christmas from a school party and newsletter, then perhaps they should get a life.
Common sense will one day permeate to the top, will it? Hmm, history tells us that it doesn't usually haha. But seriously, I would say that common sense here is to make a party and a newsletter relevant and available to all. Saying 'happy holiday' is really just acknowledging that other faiths celebrate stuff at this time of year.
And, really and truly, this MAD, CRAZY and OUT OF CONTROL dark spectre of how some people perceive political correctness is little more than a bit of fanciful dramatic interpretation from the tabloid presses.
C'mon, this debate verges on the ridiculous. God, Poole Pottery is shut and loads of people have lost their jobs just before Christmas! That's real news.
Season's greetings.
If the majority of the population was offended by the omission of the word Christmas from a school party and newsletter, then perhaps they should get a life.
Common sense will one day permeate to the top, will it? Hmm, history tells us that it doesn't usually haha. But seriously, I would say that common sense here is to make a party and a newsletter relevant and available to all. Saying 'happy holiday' is really just acknowledging that other faiths celebrate stuff at this time of year.
And, really and truly, this MAD, CRAZY and OUT OF CONTROL dark spectre of how some people perceive political correctness is little more than a bit of fanciful dramatic interpretation from the tabloid presses.
C'mon, this debate verges on the ridiculous. God, Poole Pottery is shut and loads of people have lost their jobs just before Christmas! That's real news.
Season's greetings.
TheVoice, says...
10:58am Sat 23 Dec 06
Ollie W wrote:
"...If the majority of the population was offended by the omission of the word Christmas from a school party and newsletter, then perhaps they should get a life..."
I suppose the same could be said for a small minority, of approximately 1.5 million out of around 60 million, being offended by Danish satire, some might say? Offended to the extreme that they protested on the streets, threatening to kill those who refused to share their views et al. This is just one singular example, of which there are many, many more. Would you suggest that these people, for instance, get a life also?
I also suppose that those of our relatives, who in some cases made sacrifices with their lives to protect and defend this, our, country, so that we can all be free to even have this debate (even including the UAF 'United Army of Fascists' bloke, Dan), and who fought to defend and protect these, our cultures and fundamental traditions, such as Christmas, were likewise over reacting to the threat of foreign invasion and should have got a life and rolled over into submission? The way that some of our spinless, weak fellow country men permiating from Royalty, Parliment down to the everday Joe on the streets seem to be doing more often these days.
No, I think that the silent majority or tolerant, generous indigenous Brits, who have most of the time, over the decades, welcomed foreigners and their cultures onto these islands; who now have to sit back and watch whilst a criminal gang of politicians, over populated by (ex?)-communists masquerading as socialists, who hold power by a minority vote, who are headed by a prolific liar, war criminal and who has brought utter shame upon this country, as the first serving Prime Minister, to be questioned by the police in a criminal investigation of corruption of the worst kind; Who have to sit back and watch whilst our nation is threatened and attacked in every possible way by foreigners or their offspring which they have given birth to here, are rightly sick to the back teeth of being told what we can and cannot say or do just in case it might "offend" the foreigners, many of whom are also here illegally anyway.
Whilst this whole debate has stemmed from a mother expressing her discontent at the thoughtless and senseless omission of the word Christmas in a letter from her child's school which for all intents and purposes is about Christmas, it has proven- if you view this correspondence as a microcosm of the national concessus- that the vast majority of Brits don't accept political correctness and don't and won't accept the eradication of our seasonal Christmas celebrations either.
Good on them, and a very Merry Christmas to you all, I say!
"...If the majority of the population was offended by the omission of the word Christmas from a school party and newsletter, then perhaps they should get a life..."
I suppose the same could be said for a small minority, of approximately 1.5 million out of around 60 million, being offended by Danish satire, some might say? Offended to the extreme that they protested on the streets, threatening to kill those who refused to share their views et al. This is just one singular example, of which there are many, many more. Would you suggest that these people, for instance, get a life also?
I also suppose that those of our relatives, who in some cases made sacrifices with their lives to protect and defend this, our, country, so that we can all be free to even have this debate (even including the UAF 'United Army of Fascists' bloke, Dan), and who fought to defend and protect these, our cultures and fundamental traditions, such as Christmas, were likewise over reacting to the threat of foreign invasion and should have got a life and rolled over into submission? The way that some of our spinless, weak fellow country men permiating from Royalty, Parliment down to the everday Joe on the streets seem to be doing more often these days.
No, I think that the silent majority or tolerant, generous indigenous Brits, who have most of the time, over the decades, welcomed foreigners and their cultures onto these islands; who now have to sit back and watch whilst a criminal gang of politicians, over populated by (ex?)-communists masquerading as socialists, who hold power by a minority vote, who are headed by a prolific liar, war criminal and who has brought utter shame upon this country, as the first serving Prime Minister, to be questioned by the police in a criminal investigation of corruption of the worst kind; Who have to sit back and watch whilst our nation is threatened and attacked in every possible way by foreigners or their offspring which they have given birth to here, are rightly sick to the back teeth of being told what we can and cannot say or do just in case it might "offend" the foreigners, many of whom are also here illegally anyway.
Whilst this whole debate has stemmed from a mother expressing her discontent at the thoughtless and senseless omission of the word Christmas in a letter from her child's school which for all intents and purposes is about Christmas, it has proven- if you view this correspondence as a microcosm of the national concessus- that the vast majority of Brits don't accept political correctness and don't and won't accept the eradication of our seasonal Christmas celebrations either.
Good on them, and a very Merry Christmas to you all, I say!
Ollie W, says...
1:22pm Sat 23 Dec 06
OH MY GOD, THEVOICE, YOU'RE RIGHT- WE ARE UNDER THREAT FROM FOREIGN INVASION. QUICK EVERYONE, TO THE SHELTERS. OR BETTER STILL, TO ARMS! WE MUST TAKE DOWN THESE FOREIGN MERCENARIES.
Goodness me, you took a bit of a leap there, but i agree in places. Yes, I don't think anyone can deny that if it weren't for the bravery of the people of this country around the 1940s then I'd probably be writing this in German.
And no, I can't argue against your point that some people in the world aren't too keen on the West in general and, ironically, it's mostly our fault.
But to suggest that Christmas is somehow being eradicated from our consciousness seems a little silly. It's probably just a ploy from the retail outlets- "QUICK! THIS WILL BE THE LAST CHRISTMAS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE WHILST NOT LIVING UNDER SHARIAH LAW! BUY MORE ITEMS!!" Or maybe not, haha.
Seriously though, the popular presses love a bit of siege mentality- 'oh no, the fascists are coming,' 'oh no, the communists are coming' and now it's 'oh no, the foreigners are coming to take away all that we hold dear.' And, unfortunately, lots of people take it a bit too seriously. Yes, maybe our immigration policies could be bettered. Yes, maybe it is a bit too easy to people traffick. And yes, maybe this governement has exactly improved our reputation in the world. But I don't think this means that we'll soon be forced into speaking in Urdu or whatever you think is on the cards.
As I said before, Christmas is still, to the best of my knowledge, going ahead. I hope you have a good one if you celebrate it.
Goodness me, you took a bit of a leap there, but i agree in places. Yes, I don't think anyone can deny that if it weren't for the bravery of the people of this country around the 1940s then I'd probably be writing this in German.
And no, I can't argue against your point that some people in the world aren't too keen on the West in general and, ironically, it's mostly our fault.
But to suggest that Christmas is somehow being eradicated from our consciousness seems a little silly. It's probably just a ploy from the retail outlets- "QUICK! THIS WILL BE THE LAST CHRISTMAS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE WHILST NOT LIVING UNDER SHARIAH LAW! BUY MORE ITEMS!!" Or maybe not, haha.
Seriously though, the popular presses love a bit of siege mentality- 'oh no, the fascists are coming,' 'oh no, the communists are coming' and now it's 'oh no, the foreigners are coming to take away all that we hold dear.' And, unfortunately, lots of people take it a bit too seriously. Yes, maybe our immigration policies could be bettered. Yes, maybe it is a bit too easy to people traffick. And yes, maybe this governement has exactly improved our reputation in the world. But I don't think this means that we'll soon be forced into speaking in Urdu or whatever you think is on the cards.
As I said before, Christmas is still, to the best of my knowledge, going ahead. I hope you have a good one if you celebrate it.
brian worthington, says...
3:16pm Sat 23 Dec 06
Removing the word 'Christmas' from an article is another insidious attempt to make being a Christian an offence. Its another step to stopping Christian's putting posters proclaiming 'Jesus is King;, or Jesus Saves and other such posters one sees put up outside churches. Christians will not be able to make any public comment concerning their religion they way things are going,,,in case it causes problems to others....!!!
TheVoice, says...
6:25pm Sat 23 Dec 06
Ollie W wrote:We're digressing somewhat here, but in response to your comments Ollie W, may I suggest that you take a walk down the Soho Road in the West Midlands, which starts in the town of West Bromwich and finishes in the suburb of Hockley. Then, take a few hours to visit other Birmingham suburbs like Handsworth, Lozells, Sparkbrook, Aston, Perry Barr and the neighbouring metropolitan borough of Sandwell, which takes in places like Smethwick, Warley, Oldbury, Bearwood, Blackheath and Cape Hill. Here you see that the "threat from foreign invasion" as you put it, is far from being a threat, but in actual fact a chilling reality! Whole areas completely ghettoised, with each being characteristically run down, with shabby houses and dirty streets, where stinky old fruit and veg discarded from the open fronted shops rots on the streets.
OH MY GOD, THEVOICE, YOU'RE RIGHT- WE ARE UNDER THREAT FROM FOREIGN INVASION. QUICK EVERYONE, TO THE SHELTERS. OR BETTER STILL, TO ARMS! WE MUST TAKE DOWN THESE FOREIGN MERCENARIES. Goodness me, you took a bit of a leap there, but i agree in places. Yes, I don't think anyone can deny that if it weren't for the bravery of the people of this country around the 1940s then I'd probably be writing this in German. And no, I can't argue against your point that some people in the world aren't too keen on the West in general and, ironically, it's mostly our fault. But to suggest that Christmas is somehow being eradicated from our consciousness seems a little silly. It's probably just a ploy from the retail outlets- "QUICK! THIS WILL BE THE LAST CHRISTMAS YOU WILL BE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE WHILST NOT LIVING UNDER SHARIAH LAW! BUY MORE ITEMS!!" Or maybe not, haha. Seriously though, the popular presses love a bit of siege mentality- 'oh no, the fascists are coming,' 'oh no, the communists are coming' and now it's 'oh no, the foreigners are coming to take away all that we hold dear.' And, unfortunately, lots of people take it a bit too seriously. Yes, maybe our immigration policies could be bettered. Yes, maybe it is a bit too easy to people traffick. And yes, maybe this governement has exactly improved our reputation in the world. But I don't think this means that we'll soon be forced into speaking in Urdu or whatever you think is on the cards. As I said before, Christmas is still, to the best of my knowledge, going ahead. I hope you have a good one if you celebrate it.
Places where more money per head is spent by the local councils on these areas for 'regional development projects' and specialist service providers, yet they still remain dank and unpleasant areas. Places where the strapped for cash NHS, who can't afford to pay for the life saving cancer drug Heceptin, can find the money- with almost enthusiastic ease- to pay for 'free' male circumcisions on all muslim babies under 10 weeks old. I'm staggered to think that the NHS is in a position to cover the costs of a non-medical, alien custom! It was, I'm told, introduced by the NHS due to unlicensed and unqualified mullah's causing physical damage to the boys whilst hacking at them in an unsterile mosque.
Back to the matter of this debate, and as it seems that you are pretty much in agreement with almost everything else I've said there's no point in raking over old ground.
And yes, I celebrate Christmas, always have and always will, so thanks for your good tidings.
toni weiler, says...
10:31am Sun 24 Dec 06
I´m from Mainz,Germany and have heard on the radio,that british come to us to have the notion of real christmas by attending christmas merkets for example at regensburg upon tauber.
thanks for your warm feelings for us germans.
merry christmas for you all and may our saviour be with us for eternity and eternity.
toni weiler (which surname means "hamlet"the little village)
thanks for your warm feelings for us germans.
merry christmas for you all and may our saviour be with us for eternity and eternity.
toni weiler (which surname means "hamlet"the little village)
WINTER OF DISCONTENT: Mum Penny Turner is angry that her son Jordan, 10, has been invited to a Winter Party' instead of the usual end-of-term Christmas celebration and has been wished a happy holiday'
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COLIN MORGAN, says...
11:24am Tue 19 Dec 06